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  • Ademco disarming difficulty

    This is going to sound maybe sort of odd but Ill go ahead anyway.
    I am new to Ademco products but not new to the security industry.
    I have had too may instances of difficulty disarming various Ademco panels (all 6160 keypads) in the last year and a half to call it user error.
    I get these reports of people not being able to disarm their system, the alarm goes off, and they eventually are able to disarm.
    I come out and test it with my code, their code and any other code in the system with no problem.
    Recently I have been having problems with our new building. Problems disarming by various people including the owner (my boss), (who by the way is extremely agitated).
    It's downright embarassing.
    I don't know what the problem is. It's not a matter of not enough delay time.
    I can't figure it out and haven't experienced it myself but there must be something to it right?
    Right? or are they just crazy and doing it wrong?
    Just wondering if anyone else has experienced this and maybe knows something I don't.

  • #2
    Not that it matters, but what panels?

    We use Ademco. Most common is Vista 20P's with 6160's. Everything bigger we use 6160's also. Sometimes we use Vista 15P's with 6150's, but not often. And we have a 20P with 6160's in our office.

    We don't have any problems like that with ours. You punch the 4 digit code then press 1 for off. You can just punch the code and it will turn off, but it takes longer, like 5 seconds longer.

    Can you give some scenarios. You can pm me if there's something you don't want to broadcast.
    sigpic
    Rocket Science
    Making everything else look simple, since 1958.


    http://my.opera.com/integrator/blog/
    One Man's Opinion

    The Future. It isn't what it used to be.

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    • #3
      The panels in question are 20P's, 126BP's and 250FBP's.
      The scenerios are (apparently) entering the code and off and the system not responding by disarming.
      Thats it. Nothing unusal.
      Like I said I was not there and am unable to duplicate it. It always works fine for me.
      However....it has happened enough for me to think maybe it's not user error.
      Anyway I'm catching a lot of heat for this and am getting a little concerned.

      Comment


      • #4
        Are these multi partition systems? Are you using one keypad for multiple partitions?
        sigpic
        Rocket Science
        Making everything else look simple, since 1958.


        http://my.opera.com/integrator/blog/
        One Man's Opinion

        The Future. It isn't what it used to be.

        Comment


        • #5
          Disarming difficulty

          Two arming and disarming features of the Honeywell / Ademco control panels have created numerous false alarm signals, and service calls from my customers over the years.

          Feature 1: ( Code Plus Command )

          This first feature requires that an alarm must enter an additional command into the keypad in addition to their four digit code number when disarming the system. It is usually an infrequent user of the system, such as a housekeeper, or a new employee who are given a four digit code to arm and disarm the system, but are not told about, or forget that they must also press the “1” button to disarm the system. As a result, the alarm system is tripped. The panel then goes into “Alarm Memory” mode which is the feature that I really hate.

          Feature 2: ( Alarm Memory )

          This nuisance feature is standard, not just on Honeywell / Ademco panels, but on almost every alarm panel manufactured by other companies as well. When an alarm panel is tripped, the panel locks up in alarm memory state. Usually a red LED or, the word “Alarm” is displayed on the keypad. Many panels will not arm until the panel is reset, which requires the user to enter their code number again and disarm the panel a second time.

          Over the years my office received dozens of calls from alarm users who could not arm their system, and wanted to know why a red light was flashing on their keypad. The calls usually came in from the night manager of a business ( usually at 1am ) who could not arm the system, because the employee who opened in the morning tripped the system, and silenced the alarm by disarming the system. Employees almost never get the instructions to enter the disarm code twice to clear alarm memory.

          Since the mid 1980’s I have asked alarm manufacturers to eliminate this feature, or make alarm memory a programming option. My argument is that my customers pay us as much as $50.00 per month to monitor their system, and to make notifications for them. We make phone calls, send them text messages, and email notifications of every alarm event. Alarm memory may have been a great feature in the days of local alarm systems with outside bells and tape dialers, but not today.

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          • #6
            We ran into this same problem several years ago. The installer made his chassis ground but forgot to run a true earth ground. He cheated and ran it to a metal water pipe. He didn't know it went to plastic and then back to metal. There was no continuity.
            This was after we found a new installation did not have electrical grounds in the newly installed electrical system. Answer: "We're not required to follow the National Electrical Code."
            We were able to "kill" two birds with one stone.
            Enjoy the day,
            Bill

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Bill Warnock View Post
              We ran into this same problem several years ago. The installer made his chassis ground but forgot to run a true earth ground. He cheated and ran it to a metal water pipe. He didn't know it went to plastic and then back to metal. There was no continuity.
              This was after we found a new installation did not have electrical grounds in the newly installed electrical system. Answer: "We're not required to follow the National Electrical Code."
              We were able to "kill" two birds with one stone.
              Enjoy the day,
              Bill
              Sometimes I think improper grounding accounts for (or contributes to) about 98.6% of every kind of electrical equipment failure, weird behavior, etc. in the whole world. If it's the least bit inconvenient to establish or verify true ground, it's "oh well, who cares about ground anyway? It's the hot wires that matter!"
              "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

              "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

              "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

              "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

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              • #8
                Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
                Sometimes I think improper grounding accounts for (or contributes to) about 98.6% of every kind of electrical equipment failure, weird behavior, etc. in the whole world. If it's the least bit inconvenient to establish or verify true ground, it's "oh well, who cares about ground anyway? It's the hot wires that matter!"
                SecTrainer that's not the half of it. When I was working in the security office at AMC Headquarters my O-6 boss had me accompany a Department of Army Corps of Engineer Major to determine why an alarm system failed at one of the depots. Some local technician decided that special grounding cable, 4/0, for this system was not needed so he cut it without telling anyone. Both the TM and TO specified this installation to be connected to an equilateral triangle grounding system. When they had an inspection, MPs were running around like mad to cover all the alarms that suddenly popped up. Depot commander almost lost his job.
                I know I'm being vague, it has to be that way! We both were startled with what we saw. The entire head end gear was fried. Thank Almighty God that technician was fired. We went through some of his other handywork and it was a horror.
                SecTrainer Article 250, NEC, entitled Grounding is the least understood section in the document. With each and every revision, every three years, it gets more explicit.
                Your 98.6% is about dead on!
                Enjoy the day,
                Bill
                Last edited by Bill Warnock; 01-05-2009, 07:26 PM. Reason: Misspelling

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                • #9
                  Improper grounding!!??!!

                  Thank you for giving me one of those "oh yea....right. Why did'nt I think of that" moments.
                  My tenure at this position has been brief enough, and busy enough, to not really accomplish much in the way of double checking installations.

                  Well, today I made time to do just that and guess what I found.
                  No grounding at all at most of (unable to check all today) the suspect systems. I suspect that all of them are ungrounded.

                  Stupid, stupid, stupid.
                  Sometimes we forget the fundamentals and look for more complicated reasons.
                  Lesson learned (again).

                  Thanks. Hopefully a good ground will solve this pesky issue.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Chief Red Beef, SecTrainer and I are gratified that our information has helped you in solving your problem. Tomorrow I will post some information the membership might find of use concerning grounding. Too late tonight.
                    Enjoy the day,
                    Bill

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bill Warnock View Post
                      Chief Red Beef, SecTrainer and I are gratified that our information has helped you in solving your problem. Tomorrow I will post some information the membership might find of use concerning grounding. Too late tonight.
                      Enjoy the day,
                      Bill
                      Most of us can use all the help we can get with power systems and especially grounding, Bill - I look forward to your post. I hope it will include something about ground loops (detecting, resolving, etc.) since low-voltage systems are especially susceptible.
                      "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                      "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                      "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                      "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        It's been a little while but here's what I've found out.
                        Basically, it seems, that Ademco panels (larger panels) are just plain slow.
                        Doesn't seem to have anything to do with grounding.
                        I experimented with a few larger panels (128B, 128BP and 250FBP)and did have a problem disarming them.
                        The problem seems to be that when the panel is dialing out or communicating other functions slow down.
                        This was especially noticable on a 4204 relay module that I installed to control sirens. I had as much as a 20 second delay on the relay. (siren blasting for a full 20 seconds after code was entered to silence an alarm before shutting off).
                        When I disabled communications there was no delay on the relay and the code was accepted right away.
                        Interesting.

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