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UnderCover LED Dash/Visor Lights GEN II +P

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  • #16
    Quebec has very strict laws on this. It takes a permit for any kind of flasher. (Guess what? Permits cost money ). Security can get permits for yellow lights. Police & only police use red & blue. (They forced a local fire department to remove a blue light they had on a truck). We have a few organizations in Montreal that the public think are police but actually are security/bylaw enforcement units. You can tell that they are not police because they have red flashers but no blue. Other emergency services use red, red & white, red & yellow.

    Volunteer firefighters presently are not allowed to use anything. But apparently they are looking into allowing them to use green lights but they won't be able to flash or rotate. (Those are used for command posts).
    I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
    Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

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    • #17
      Indiana

      Red/Blue
      Police, Funeral Escorts, Coroner

      Red
      Corrections, DOT, Hospital (other than EMS), EMS, Fire, Volunteer Fire Chief in POV

      Blue (no siren)
      Volunteer Fire. Blue lights are not considered emergency vehicle.

      Green W/SirenFlashing White Light
      Any authorized emergency vehicle.

      Amber
      Security, DOT, Wreckers

      Sheriff or BMV may designate any private vehicle as an emergency vehicle. Said vehicles may run red or red/white with siren
      Last edited by Tennsix; 04-14-2006, 11:12 PM.
      I believe I speak for everyone here sir, when I say, to Hell with our orders.
      -Lieutenant Commander Data
      sigpic

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Mr. Security
        This area just LOVES to regulate everything and anything. Thus, the SQUARE badge laws. It gives the legislators something to do.
        Plus, it usually means revenue for the state.
        Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

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        • #19
          I tend to disagree with the posts in this thread. First, c-tec is, I believe, a canadian company, so there laws may be different. Also, C-tec tends to post a lot on another forum I belong to (elightbars.org) and while no where near the big guys (whelen, fedsig, etc.) still gets favorable reviews from its members. Second, while it is true that most states regulate lights for security I do see a need for undercover lighting in security vehicles. I personally think that unmarked security cars are more professional than lightbar equipped cars. A comment was made that "slick top" cars look too much like the police. How can that be? One would thing that a lightbar would make it look more like a police car as it is more obvious. Keep in mind, that at least in my area, it is rare for security companies to drive crown vics. In fact more crown vics are driven by street trash than security here. I recently saw an obvious gang banger driving an old black and white, still had the spotlights and pushbars too. Keep in mind that security is about crime PREVENTION. whats the best way to prevent crime but to make people think a cop is on scene. And no I am not telling people to run around pretending to be cops. Rather, go with the perception. Every security company I have worked for I have been mistaken for the cops. It doesn't matter what my car looks like, or my uniform, no one takes the time to read it anyways. The bottom line is don't look at your equipment as "impersonating". You are only impersonating if you SAY you are a cop. Otherwise, jails would be full of impersonators. There is a need for "covert" type security vehicles and c-tec is merely saying they are out there if you want. Its up to you if you want the lights, no one is making you buy them. This is a vendor forum so Im not sure why these debates always rise when someone offers lights for sale.

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          • #20
            Here's the problem with slick tops. I drove one, and have been pulled over for "verifying that I'm not impersonating."

            1. A marked security company vehicle with light bar will say something other than "Police" on it. This instantly denies any concept of impersonation.

            2. Some states hit REAL hard on Impersonating by driving Police Vehicle. I actually observed several deputy sheriff's order a vehicle operator to remove from his vehicle a dash light, two deck lights, and an A-Frame Spotlight. After he did that, they cited him for a multitude of infractions, then released him. If he had not complied, he would of been arrested for "impersonating a police officer." This is because one deputy saw the guy pull in, and thought he was a deputy sergeant. Found out he wasn't, and was pissed off, then the real sergeant showed up, and shared the view.
            Some Kind of Commando Leader

            "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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            • #21
              Here's the problem with slick tops. I drove one, and have been pulled over for "verifying that I'm not impersonating."

              1. A marked security company vehicle with light bar will say something other than "Police" on it. This instantly denies any concept of impersonation.

              2. Some states hit REAL hard on Impersonating by driving Police Vehicle. I actually observed several deputy sheriff's order a vehicle operator to remove from his vehicle a dash light, two deck lights, and an A-Frame Spotlight. After he did that, they cited him for a multitude of infractions, then released him. If he had not complied, he would of been arrested for "impersonating a police officer." This is because one deputy saw the guy pull in, and thought he was a deputy sergeant. Found out he wasn't, and was pissed off, then the real sergeant showed up, and shared the view.
              Some Kind of Commando Leader

              "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Michael Ledgerwood
                ...This is a vendor forum so Im not sure why these debates always rise when someone offers lights for sale.
                The lights being for sale aren't really a point of objection to me, but looking at the subject matter posted by those here there is a strong and legitimate warning against purchasing the wrong type of lights. The correct type of lights for security vehicles should be marketed to the security business in general. Generally speaking, those that could be used to initiate traffic stops are too much of a temptation for those overzealous security officers who would not be able to resist the temptation to improperly use such equipment.
                "We appreciate all the hard work you've done, the dedicated hours you have worked, and the lives you have saved. However, since this is your third time being late to work, we are terminating your employment here."

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                • #23
                  I agree that it could be temptation for a security officer. But I thing that that responsibility rests with the officer and the vendor. My point is just that every time someone offers lights for sale it starts this huge debate. Truth be told, I could care less what the laws are in Michigan or California or anywhere else as thats not where I am at. I know the laws of my area and should only buy things accordingly. Granted, there will be those that will go out and abuse it.

                  N.A.Cobier, I understand what you are saying. My point is a police car in itself doesn't mean you are impersonating. Obviously if you drive a crown vic with 'police' on it thats a different story. You are impersonating only if you actually say you are a police officer. The story you mentioned, if it happend to me I would have told the officers to shove it as they have no legal authority. If the dash light was amber then theres no problem, I am not aware of any state that outlaws spotlights. It sounds like the cop was doing something wrong and affraid he got caught by his sgt.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Michael Ledgerwood
                    I agree that it could be temptation for a security officer. But I thing that that responsibility rests with the officer and the vendor. My point is just that every time someone offers lights for sale it starts this huge debate. Truth be told, I could care less what the laws are in Michigan or California or anywhere else as thats not where I am at. I know the laws of my area and should only buy things accordingly. Granted, there will be those that will go out and abuse it.

                    N.A.Cobier, I understand what you are saying. My point is a police car in itself doesn't mean you are impersonating. Obviously if you drive a crown vic with 'police' on it thats a different story. You are impersonating only if you actually say you are a police officer. The story you mentioned, if it happend to me I would have told the officers to shove it as they have no legal authority. If the dash light was amber then theres no problem, I am not aware of any state that outlaws spotlights. It sounds like the cop was doing something wrong and affraid he got caught by his sgt.
                    Most states have a law stating that no vehicle may mount a light which is capable of being pointed at the cabin of another motor vehicle. That's how most cops get the "take the spot light off," and find the vehicle "not road-worthy" if you refuse to - which results in a tow.

                    The dash lights were Amber, which is permissable. Florida's definition of impersonation is basically, "any activity or condition which makes a member of the public believe a person is a LEO of any type." Someone was arrested in Largo, Florida, for having a gun on (legal, he had a CCW), and wearing an LAPD hat. No kidding. He had on an LAPD hat, and was arrested for impersonating a LA Police Officer, in Largo, Florida.

                    I think this illustrates one of the basic problems. It doesn't matter the true legality of the sitatution. If the road officer believes its illegal, then it is unless your prepared to go the whole nine yards, be arrested or cited, and fight it in court. Your company must also be prepared to go the whole nine yards, as well.

                    Now, amusingly enough, you can drive an unmarked car. Just make sure it isn't a Ford Crown Vic, and that it doesn't have any visible lights in it. After all, the public can't tell the difference between an amber lens and a blue lens. Of course, the public doesn't really care one way or another.
                    Some Kind of Commando Leader

                    "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by 1stWatch
                      The lights being for sale aren't really a point of objection to me, but looking at the subject matter posted by those here there is a strong and legitimate warning against purchasing the wrong type of lights. The correct type of lights for security vehicles should be marketed to the security business in general. Generally speaking, those that could be used to initiate traffic stops are too much of a temptation for those overzealous security officers who would not be able to resist the temptation to improperly use such equipment.
                      What? Any lightbar can be used to pull someone over. Whether it's on a dash, behind a grill, on the sideview mirrors, on the roof, wherever. Idiot security guards are going to do idiot things no matter where their lights are located.

                      Show me lights you can't pull someone over with. Stupid people will do stupid things, regardless of the lights on their car.

                      I too didn't exactly understand what everyone's beef was with this item. Different security companies located in different jurisdictions have different needs and different laws that apply to them. Let the owner of the company decide what is best for his patrol cars.
                      10-8

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
                        ....
                        Florida's definition of impersonation is basically, "any activity or condition which makes a member of the public believe a person is a LEO of any type."
                        Thankfully, CT adds "intent" to the definition. That makes it more difficult for some overzealous LEO to "make a mountain out of a molehill."
                        Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Mr. Security
                          Thankfully, CT adds "intent" to the definition. That makes it more difficult for some overzealous LEO to "make a mountain out of a molehill."
                          FSS 493 imposes an even harsher standard on contract security officers, as well, specifically making it a criminal offense to resemble any official person. This means you can't appear to be a utility worker, a park ranger, or anything else connected with the government or public enterprise, not just a law enforcement officer.
                          Some Kind of Commando Leader

                          "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
                            FSS 493 imposes an even harsher standard on contract security officers, as well, specifically making it a criminal offense to resemble any official person. This means you can't appear to be a utility worker, a park ranger, or anything else connected with the government or public enterprise, not just a law enforcement officer.
                            Same for Indiana. The statute is titled "Impersonating A Public Servant". However, it is a felony if one impersonates law enforcement personel-civillian or sworn. The state later created an EMT impersonation law to protect the private service EMT's
                            Last edited by Tennsix; 05-01-2006, 07:36 PM.
                            I believe I speak for everyone here sir, when I say, to Hell with our orders.
                            -Lieutenant Commander Data
                            sigpic

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                            • #29
                              Impersonating implies that one is intentionally trying to deceive the public for unscrupulous purposes. I can't see how someone dressed as a utility worker for any other reason is a criminal. Has anyone been successfully prosecuted for this?
                              Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Mr. Security
                                Impersonating implies that one is intentionally trying to deceive the public for unscrupulous purposes. I can't see how someone dressed as a utility worker for any other reason is a criminal. Has anyone been successfully prosecuted for this?
                                Window peepers?
                                I believe I speak for everyone here sir, when I say, to Hell with our orders.
                                -Lieutenant Commander Data
                                sigpic

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