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  • The gun debate heightens

    Since the horrific events at Virginia Tech. there has been an awakening of gun debate here in the U.S..

    I am a legel gun owner but understand both sides of the debate. (Although I agree more with the second ammendment side I will try not to be bias).

    Crime statistics for countries that have heavy gun control on average do show an increase (mainly short term but some long term) in violent crime. The increases may not have a gun involved, but, the fact that firearms were greatly restricted may play into the increases.

    Sources: (some of these are WELL worth reviwing)
    http://www.sfu.ca/~mauser/papers/let...rUSoped104.pdf
    http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared...sNav=nr&id=570
    http://www.justfacts.com/gun_control.htm
    http://www.policyalmanac.org/crime/a...nd_crime.shtml
    http://www.jpfo.org/data-docs.htm


    As our hearts go out to the families and victims of the massacre at VT there is debate on allowing students and faculty to conceal carry on campus. I have a problem with this for 2 reasons.

    1. Most college students are between the ages of 17 and 23. I am not saying they are not responsible adults but do think that the maturity level of alot of these students come into play.

    2. Most of these young adults are away from home for the first time. The alcohol factor comes into play on most campuses across the country. I would not like to hear about a normal teenage ruckus turning into a murder because one of the intoxicated individuals did not have the maturity to control their anger.

    I do agree however that concealed carry on campus may work under the following conditions.

    1. If the student is able to meet all criteria of a state issued concealed carry permit and also meets the following:

    a. The college or university is notified personally by the individual of the issuance of the permit.

    b. The student is registered with campus security or police.

    c. The student undergoes advanced firearms training either on his own or through the university to a level significantly higher than standards imposed by the state and approved by the university.

    d. The university reviews the students record and does a full background investigation of the student. I know most universities use background checks already for admission but this would dig further into the individuals mental health.

    e. Must pass a psychological evaluation.

    f. Must be a U.S. Citizen. I do not feel that the second ammendment should apply to anyone other than a U.S. citizen.

    Any thoughts or concerns?

  • #2
    The thought of having students with guns on campus is not a new concept. In fact some of the major Us have had gun clubs for many years. I'm sure that they are restricted to the club activities but as the world gets crazier these are the students that I think would be most responsible to carry in a U type atmosphere. Also on a campus where you have an armed campus police force larger than some town forces. Then you have your unarmed dorm security people. Would adding armed students to the mix cause a disaster all in its self? M.I.T. averages 5 suicides a year by students that can't handle the pressure of a possible scholastic failure. What may happen if we add guns to the mix. Lot more questions in this thread than answers.

    http://web.mit.edu/mitprc/www/index.html

    http://volokh.com/sasha/guns.html

    http://www.nrahq.org/compete/coldir.asp

    http://media.www.studlife.com/media/...b-532704.shtml
    Last edited by Chucky; 04-20-2007, 08:28 PM.
    THE AVERAGE RESPONSE TIME FOR A 911 CALL IS FOUR MINUTES
    THE AVERAGE RESPONSE TIME FOR A .357 MAGNUM ROUND IS 1400 FEET PER SECOND?
    http://www.boondocksaints.com/

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Chucky
      The thought of having students with guns on campus is not a new concept. In fact some of the major Us have had gun clubs for many years. I'm sure that they are restricted to the club activities but as the world gets crazier these are the students that I think would be most responsible to carry in a U type atmosphere. Also on a campus where you have an armed campus police force larger than some town forces. Then you have your unarmed dorm security people. Would adding armed students to the mix cause a disaster all in its self? M.I.T. averages 5 suicides a year by students that can't handle the pressure of a possible scholastic failure. What may happen if we add guns to the mix. Lot more questions in this thread than answers.
      I am glad to see there are so many gun clubs at universities. As for the suicide problem. There have always been problems with suicide at colleges and universities. As I stated before the university has the ability to monitor ones mental health condition. If the persons grades drop below standards many times their counselors will intervene. If the counselor feels there are reasons to refer the student to psychologists then the university has the obligation to pull the students on campus carry priveleges as well as notify the state dept that issues the cc.

      Many high schools across the country are also forming shooting clubs. I'm glad to see this. If gun education was taught in school at younger ages there may be alot less accidents and dying children. "if you see a gun run and tell an adult" has its merit, but, I also think all students at a certain age (say 10-12 maybe younger) should go to a range and have an instructor actually demonstrate what a weapon can do (to a watermelon or orange or something like that) to show the kids that they are not toys and can do the same thing to a person. If the children are familiar with guns and what they can do their curiosity will be lessor than a kid that has never handled or seen one except on tv or movies. (That really bad show "The A-Team" showed kids that you can shoot all day and never get hurt) Showed my age there didn't I?

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      • #4
        I do remember a good friend of mine went to CalTech. She found it bitterly funny that the longer you went to CalTech, the higher amount of mental health insurance you got from the college. By the time you graduated, they were ready for you to kill yourself.
        Some Kind of Commando Leader

        "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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        • #5
          Looks like an old debate about concealed carry has come up again.

          I have a concealed carry license.

          I think that anyone who fits the criteria for one should not be hindered from carrying as long as they stay within the chl rules.

          The bad guys and nut cases who want a weapon will get one without giving a rats tail about rules anyways.
          That has been an unfortunate and proven fact for some time.

          There are plenty of people going to college who are mature enough and able enough to meet the rules of a chl.
          So...... Why not?
          Observe and report what you saw with a good flashlight.
          Bedtime at sunrise

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          • #6
            Originally posted by 3rd_shift
            I think that anyone who fits the criteria for one should not be hindered from carrying as long as they stay within the chl rules.

            The bad guys and nut cases who want a weapon will get one without giving a rats tail about rules anyways.
            That has been an unfortunate and proven fact for some time.

            There are plenty of people going to college who are mature enough and able enough to meet the rules of a chl.
            So...... Why not?
            I completely agree.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Rooney
              I completely agree.
              I agree also. I also have a Ohio Concealed Handgun License.
              "I am not a hero. I am a silent guardian, a watchful protector"

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              • #8
                I currently down own a gun, and i dont really want one. But I do think people have the right to own a gun if they choose and they have a clean background. But i have heard rumors that they will be making it harder to obtain guns even for good people. I accept this, and would only be against it if they try to change our constitutional right.

                Furthermore...

                I am upset that they have been discussing background checks for college students because of the disaster in VA. I do beleive people deserve education even if they had a rocky past.
                Security is more than a job, its preservation for our future.

                Fiber Fence - Perimeter Protection Security Solutions

                Fiber Optic Products

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Secure Permagrin
                  I am upset that they have been discussing background checks for college students because of the disaster in VA. I do beleive people deserve education even if they had a rocky past.
                  Most Universities already do background checks on applicants. It is part of the admissions process. I know the Universites around here do a basic background check that includes checking for:
                  1. criminal, for felonies or misdemeanor drug offenses.
                  2. credit history (you have to be able to pay for school if not a loan)
                  3. Some schools, driving record (I don't know why)

                  I agree that people should have the right to an education. But, the University also has a right to refuse someone with an extensive criminal record. If they have changed their ways then the University should take it on a "case by case" basis. I.E. a rapist may say they have changed but most "not all" re-offend.

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                  • #10
                    but background checks dont say enough about a person, especially younger people. Everyone does stupid things, and usually grow up through it all. sometimes education is what reforms a person. if colleges devey certain people education then they should have a unversity for just criminals or some other solution.

                    Age should also have something to do with it.
                    Security is more than a job, its preservation for our future.

                    Fiber Fence - Perimeter Protection Security Solutions

                    Fiber Optic Products

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Secure Permagrin View Post
                      but background checks dont say enough about a person, especially younger people. Everyone does stupid things, and usually grow up through it all. sometimes education is what reforms a person. if colleges devey certain people education then they should have a unversity for just criminals or some other solution.

                      Age should also have something to do with it.
                      Not to scare anyone, but one only needs to be 18 years old here in Texas to become an armed guard.
                      And yes, they can carry whatever they qualify for.
                      Anything from a 22. to a massive 12 guage shotgun.

                      Not too much has gone wrong from that yet.

                      If the students who qualify for a chl are indeed carrying, a good education might be the better way to go for anyone who has had a bad record, instead of getting themselves shot.
                      Observe and report what you saw with a good flashlight.
                      Bedtime at sunrise

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                      • #12
                        Hi folks, Just returned from a 12 day trip to Northern Ireland. I'm still suffering a little from jet lag!

                        I thought we had it bad in Canada. In the UK private security are allowed NOTHING in the way of weapons. Not even batons or handcuffs.

                        Even armoured car security don't have weapons. They wear helmits & carry the money in high security containers. Some of the containers cantain dye packs. The trucks have signs on the back asking the police to follow them! In smaller places they contact the police ahead of time & are followed around the town.

                        All members of the Police Service of Northern Ireland (Formerly The Ulster Constabulary) are armed. Guns & pepper spray. A lot of the police vehicles are left over from "The Troubles" & are army type semi armoured with cages around the flashers.

                        The police stations even in the small cities are fortresses. Surrounded by high walls topped with barbed wire.
                        I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
                        Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

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                        • #13
                          Its odd, because a lot of the Securitas guards who were attacked in England were shot or stabbed. This was the "stabbing epidemic" of last year, mostly against Securitas armored guards.

                          And all they can do is run. I don't think they get to wear armor, either.
                          Some Kind of Commando Leader

                          "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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                          • #14
                            I didn't get to speak to any since the ones I saw were carrying money but they seemed to be wearing vests. I don't know what the helmits are for. BTW there seemed to be in teams of 2. 1 stayed inside the lorries (sorry trucks ) & handed the money cases out via trap doors. The solo guard would then carry the case by himself. I saw Brinks & G4S.
                            I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
                            Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Rooney View Post
                              f. Must be a U.S. Citizen. I do not feel that the second ammendment should apply to anyone other than a U.S. citizen.
                              Hahaha..The Bill of Rights outlines mans God given rights but only if God sees fit to make you an American.
                              Hospital Security Officer

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