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Defending against knife attacks

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  • T202
    replied
    Once investigated an assault where one guy stabbed the other in the leg with a knife. Got a warrant and on Christmas morning we went to arrest him. Guess what he got for Christmas from his wife? A new knife. Go figure.

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  • ACP01
    replied
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
    You'd think, but there's a great story about a guy who used a PR-24 against a knife wielding suspect. He has scars on both arms, eventually shot the BG to death. Horriffic scars over most of both arms, he was carved up.

    A motivated individual will ignore the pain of a baton strike. Unless you can get a lucky shot in and cause the hand to drop the knife, he can still slice and dice you while your hitting him with a steel rod.

    The guy that stabbed me ended upin the same ER except I left after a few stitches..He went into surgery ie skull fracture, broken clavicle, and broken jaw. Once he stabbed me I bounced his head off the pavement, then got the baton into service and he was still trying to scuffle.

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  • Bill Warnock
    replied
    Originally posted by DMS 525
    I got stabbed in the leg, too, early in the game. At a traffic stop; he whirled around in the seat(passenger) and lunged at me before I knew what was happening.

    (Knock on wood) The only time since someone drew a knife on me, I backed up two long strides, and drew my firearm. Made it clear to him if he didn't drop it right there, I would neutralize him. He didn't try to call my bluff.

    That 21 foot rule was called "Truller Drill", after SGT Dennis Truller of the Salt Lake City PD. He was the first to prove how a knife is deadly within 21 feet.

    You should see that movie "Surviving Edged Weapons." Made me leave the room for a couple of minutes.
    DMS 525:
    Sir, could you please give me a date of Sgt Truller's discovery?. The Air/Security Police Academy had been teaching this for several years before 1968, I'm told. I went through in July 1968.
    I'd appreciate it.
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill

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  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    I was able to watch all of Surviving Edged Weapons. My first encounter with a knifing victim was a 68 year old guard who was a friend of mine on a post.

    We were talking, and he related the story (I may of told it before) about his own firearms vs. knife encounter. He was on guard duty, in the Marines, during WWII.

    During his night watch, a Japanese soldier came into camp. He challenged the soldier, and his reward was a bayonet up his left arm from the wrist to the elbow, then another slice from elbow to shoulder. Deep gashes. After fighting with the soldier, he reached his .45 and shot the enemy soldier dead.

    His Sergeant arrived to determine the cause of the gunshot, and noted grimly, "Next time you kill a <japanese soldier>, don't wake the whole camp." He was then, of course, treated for his wounds.

    His rifle was useless, he noted, because the soldier was on him like "that." His sidearm was only useful after a prolonged struggle.

    I think everyone in both professions should meet someone who's survived a knife attack. Its one thing to watch the movie, but its another to see the scars they leave on another human being - and realize both the power of the blade, and that you can achieve victory in close quarters combat with a knife-wielding opponent.

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  • DMS 525
    replied
    Originally posted by ACP01
    Something to keep in mind about knife attacks is the attacker will not generally be even 21 feet away. Most knife attacks on PD or SOs occur at normal working distances (2 arm length etc) where the knife is pulled and IMMEDIATELLY put into action. (This is what happened to me..ended up getting stabbed in the leg of all places).

    You HAVE to pay attention! Get out of the way! Counter and secure the weapon or the arm and hand. (I lossed control of the wrist). Punish the attacker until situation is controlled.
    I got stabbed in the leg, too, early in the game. At a traffic stop; he whirled around in the seat(passenger) and lunged at me before I knew what was happening.

    (Knock on wood) The only time since someone drew a knife on me, I backed up two long strides, and drew my firearm. Made it clear to him if he didn't drop it right there, I would neutralize him. He didn't try to call my bluff.

    That 21 foot rule was called "Truller Drill", after SGT Dennis Truller of the Salt Lake City PD. He was the first to prove how a knife is deadly within 21 feet.

    You should see that movie "Surviving Edged Weapons." Made me leave the room for a couple of minutes.

    Leave a comment:


  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    I got the 30 foot rule from Police Magazine, as referenced by Samuel from Officer.com/SPE Forums. Several other folks have suggested it, as well, that most consider to be competent in the subject, such as Jerry Mcaulley. (Who I wish I could remember if its McC or Mca)

    I like the rule because it makes sense. People are fast.

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  • Bill Warnock
    replied
    Defending Against Knife Attacks

    Nathan et al:
    I am to this day, nearly 40 years ago I offered a solution to handle a subject with a knife. The guest instructor was from the Highway Patrol. He belittled what the Air Force taught me in 1968, the 21-foot rule.
    Two weeks later, to the day, he was knifed to death as he tried to draw his service weapon, well within the 21-foot rule.
    Gangs in this part of the world are something to really fear. The LEO and Security Officers have to have eyes in the back of their heads. Pity the poor civilian or poorly trained person coming up short in such an encounter.
    Nathan, I'm coming around to your way of thinking, 0-30 feet.
    Until you have been stabbed, you don't know the meaning of "fear."
    Again and again I'm reminded, this is not the era of my youth.
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill

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  • 1stWatch
    replied
    Originally posted by bigdog
    knife equals deadly force if baton is out strike for neck or head.
    I agree. Being able to draw and shoot is best, since that minimizes the danger to you, but if it comes to having to melee against the knife I like the idea of limb striking followed up by a throat punch, an elbow strike, or foul tactics (ripping of extremities, ears, eyes, testicles, etc.).

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  • 1stWatch
    replied
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
    You'd think, but there's a great story about a guy who used a PR-24 against a knife wielding suspect. He has scars on both arms, eventually shot the BG to death. Horriffic scars over most of both arms, he was carved up.

    A motivated individual will ignore the pain of a baton strike. Unless you can get a lucky shot in and cause the hand to drop the knife, he can still slice and dice you while your hitting him with a steel rod.
    There is also a bit of a time delay in order to pull the baton out of the scabbard and extend it. That time is usually not available during a fast paced knife attack. It is a bit shorter with a stick or PR24 in a ring, but it is still there.

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  • bigdog
    replied
    knife equals deadly force if baton is out strike for neck or head.

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  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Originally posted by Mr. Security
    Like the guy whose doped up and keeps coming at an officer who has already used deadly force. Thank goodness I don't have to deal with those kinds of individuals.
    Drugs are bad, but someone pumped up on fear or rage is determined enough to defeat a baton attack just long enough to cut you. How bad depends on their level of training and your's.

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  • Mr. Security
    replied
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
    You'd think, but there's a great story about a guy who used a PR-24 against a knife wielding suspect. He has scars on both arms, eventually shot the BG to death. Horriffic scars over most of both arms, he was carved up.

    A motivated individual will ignore the pain of a baton strike. Unless you can get a lucky shot in and cause the hand to drop the knife, he can still slice and dice you while your hitting him with a steel rod.
    Like the guy whose doped up and keeps coming at an officer who has already used deadly force. Thank goodness I don't have to deal with those kinds of individuals.

    Leave a comment:


  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Originally posted by Mr. Security
    If you are dealing with an individual that may have a knife, why not have your baton already extended? A 26" ASP should be enough to keep some distance between you and the knife.
    You'd think, but there's a great story about a guy who used a PR-24 against a knife wielding suspect. He has scars on both arms, eventually shot the BG to death. Horriffic scars over most of both arms, he was carved up.

    A motivated individual will ignore the pain of a baton strike. Unless you can get a lucky shot in and cause the hand to drop the knife, he can still slice and dice you while your hitting him with a steel rod.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mr. Security
    replied
    Originally posted by ACP01
    Something to keep in mind about knife attacks is the attacker will not generally be even 21 feet away. Most knife attacks on PD or SOs occur at normal working distances (2 arm length etc) where the knife is pulled and IMMEDIATELLY put into action. (This is what happened to me..ended up getting stabbed in the leg of all places).

    You HAVE to pay attention! Get out of the way! Counter and secure the weapon or the arm and hand. (I lossed control of the wrist). Punish the attacker until situation is controlled.
    If you are dealing with an individual that may have a knife, why not have your baton already extended? A 26" ASP should be enough to keep some distance between you and the knife.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1stWatch
    replied
    Originally posted by ACP01
    ...Counter and secure the weapon or the arm and hand. (I lossed control of the wrist). Punish the attacker until situation is controlled.
    Many people will, in order to secure the arm holding the weapon, use a grappling hold to try to neutralize it. This is vaguely possible in my opinion, but keep in mind that hand holding the knife can turn anywhere within a circle's radius and the knife can and most likely will cut you. This is why I prefer the method of swift limb destruction - hard fast striking to the wrist, top of the hand, and biceps as well as kicks to the shins first.

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