Firearm in unsecured structure: O.com Ask-A-Cop Response

[N. A. Corbier]

http://forums.officer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=589826&postcount=6

Do notice how the Alabama LEO Notes that your job is not to respond to the unsecured structure, but call law enforcement so that they can respond to the unsecured structure.

How well would this fly with "verified response" accounts, where you require to determine there is a crime in progress, your already out there, yet you haven't done anything? Ie: wasting the cop's time.

[bigdog]

typical law enforcement response. they think all security officers are second rate and are bumbling idiots.

[Lawson]

typical law enforcement response. they think all security officers are second rate and are bumbling idiots.

Unfortunately in a lot of cases they are right. 8/10ths of the Security officers I have met, I would want them facing any real badguys.

[Michael Ledgerwood]

When I worked for a company called First Response Inc, that was there bread and butter was doing alarm responses. The city of Seattle passed an ordinance stating that police would not respond to alarms and alarm companies would face hefty fines. This ordinance prompted one of the largest alarm monitoring companies in the nation to contract with First Response. This included thousands of residences and businesses we would respond to. The management at First Response wanted all officers to respond to alarms armed, however the client said no, we had to secure our weapons in our cars. It was also our policy to "investigate" as much as is safely prudent. Meaning just becuase we had an open door we weren't going to call SPD for it unless it was a bona fide crime. This client however wanted the police called if anything was out of the ordinary. I had SPD dispatched on several occassions because a utility room door or storage room door had been left open even though access to the house could not be made. It made us look like bumbling idiots. I finally said to hell with policy i will not call SPD unless I am sure a crime has been commited. Its not just the security companies that make boneheaded policies, its the clients too.

[Mr. Security]

....
Do notice how the Alabama LEO Notes that your job is not to respond to the unsecured structure, but call law enforcement so that they can respond to the unsecured structure.

How well would this fly with "verified response" accounts, where you require to determine there is a crime in progress, your already out there, yet you haven't done anything? Ie: wasting the cop's time.

Fine, as long as they get there quick and I mean quick. Otherwise, forget it.

[N. A. Corbier]

Fine, as long as they get there quick and I mean quick. Otherwise, forget it.

Why would they respond quickly? Its a security guard calling, its not a crime against person, and it being a guard calling, its probably the guard forgetting that he opened the door.

[Bill Warnock]

When I worked for a company called First Response Inc, that was there bread and butter was doing alarm responses. The city of Seattle passed an ordinance stating that police would not respond to alarms and alarm companies would face hefty fines. This ordinance prompted one of the largest alarm monitoring companies in the nation to contract with First Response. This included thousands of residences and businesses we would respond to. The management at First Response wanted all officers to respond to alarms armed, however the client said no, we had to secure our weapons in our cars. It was also our policy to "investigate" as much as is safely prudent. Meaning just becuase we had an open door we weren't going to call SPD for it unless it was a bona fide crime. This client however wanted the police called if anything was out of the ordinary. I had SPD dispatched on several occassions because a utility room door or storage room door had been left open even though access to the house could not be made. It made us look like bumbling idiots. I finally said to hell with policy i will not call SPD unless I am sure a crime has been commited. Its not just the security companies that make boneheaded policies, its the clients too.

Micheal:
Did or does First Response make decision logic tables and from there develop an item analysis to determine the cause of these "false" alarms? I'd like to know since I've been on a 20 some year tear about false or nuisance alarm abatement.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[Mr. Security]

Why would they respond quickly? Its a security guard calling, its not a crime against person, and it being a guard calling, its probably the guard forgetting that he opened the door.

In my area, the police are VERY quick to respond. Five minutes or less in many cases, even if it's not a call that requires a code 3 response. I have to give them a lot of credit because their territory is quite large. However, I doubt that the SPD are capable of such response times. That's why I ended my post with a

[1stWatch]

The policy we follow on unsecure buildings is this: if the door is not forced, we enter the building, preferably with gloves on, with a one man cover and do a plain view sweep of each room to determine if someone is inside or if there are signs of forced entry inside. A person inside the location gets id'ed and if that person is a burglar, we arrest the person.
If the door is forced, we don't touch it, just park at a safe distance from it while still keeping it in view and contact the police to come investigate it since the broken door is evidence of an offense in and of itself. We still remain on scene since we may be required to cover the police during their building sweep. We don't leave unless ordered by police.

[1stWatch]

When I worked for a company called First Response Inc, that was there bread and butter was doing alarm responses. The city of Seattle passed an ordinance stating that police would not respond to alarms and alarm companies would face hefty fines. This ordinance prompted one of the largest alarm monitoring companies in the nation to contract with First Response. This included thousands of residences and businesses we would respond to. The management at First Response wanted all officers to respond to alarms armed, however the client said no, we had to secure our weapons in our cars. It was also our policy to "investigate" as much as is safely prudent. Meaning just becuase we had an open door we weren't going to call SPD for it unless it was a bona fide crime. This client however wanted the police called if anything was out of the ordinary. I had SPD dispatched on several occassions because a utility room door or storage room door had been left open even though access to the house could not be made. It made us look like bumbling idiots. I finally said to hell with policy i will not call SPD unless I am sure a crime has been commited. Its not just the security companies that make boneheaded policies, its the clients too.

That's pretty much what the patrol companies in Dallas who respond to alarms do. We do have problems with some clients wanting us to disarm. I am fortunate enough to work for a company who takes a stand that if we're providing any sort of patrol service we will not disarm, an armed officer is what they're paying for, especially when it comes to burglar alarm response. This is much easier to negiotiate since we are an alarm company as well as a patrol and guard company.
I really don't like calling the DPD out for an open door, but I have had to do it on a few occasions, such as the last time I had one open on a house valued at several million dollars and I did not have any of my own cover available. The idea of calling them out in this case was for accountablity. They understood that when they showed up too.
I have been in the position of calling them before for an open door because the company I worked for at the time ordered it. Those cops treated me with such indignation it was embarrassing. One of them even asked if I needed help spelling any of the words on my report one time. Then I just wanted to go home.
But yes, clearing a building is our duty if it is prudent to do so.

[1stWatch]

Unfortunately in a lot of cases they are right. 8/10ths of the Security officers I have met, I would want them facing any real badguys.

This is why it is paramount for patrol officers working in security to receive additional specialized training aside from what security usually goes through: officer safety, evidence protection for theft and burglary, drilling on building sweeps, verbal contacts and command presence, and components and operation of alarm systems to name a few. It is also very important for such responders to be armed, to have a suitable flashlight, and to wear level 3A body armor.

[Michael Ledgerwood]

Micheal:
Did or does First Response make decision logic tables and from there develop an item analysis to determine the cause of these "false" alarms? I'd like to know since I've been on a 20 some year tear about false or nuisance alarm abatement.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

I am not sure what you mean by decision logic tables but I will try to answer it. When the officer arrives on scene, his first priority is to see if a crime has been commited. Then to find any suspects. No crime and no suspects the officer has to make every possible attempt to determine the cause of the alarmm. Once the cause is know we make a note in our report for the client to get. Nice thing is they use laptops in their cars so they can look up the history as well and that can help determine the cause. Not sure if this helped or not.

Have a good day,
Mike

[Bill Warnock]

I am not sure what you mean by decision logic tables but I will try to answer it. When the officer arrives on scene, his first priority is to see if a crime has been commited. Then to find any suspects. No crime and no suspects the officer has to make every possible attempt to determine the cause of the alarmm. Once the cause is know we make a note in our report for the client to get. Nice thing is they use laptops in their cars so they can look up the history as well and that can help determine the cause. Not sure if this helped or not.

Have a good day,
Mike

Mike, that does help; however, when decision logic tables are set they can use: if not this, than that until they have narrowed the cause.
Thunderstorms are the bain for some alarms systems. There are others factors that should be taken in account for these "false alarms."
As you mentioned, a history of problematic systems is most helpful.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[Tennsix]

[Bill Warnock]

All of this could have been prevented had there been a comprehensive site survey and proper sensor selection. Tennsix, at least you had the grit to look for the problem and recommend a solution. Many in this industry just shrug their shoulders and state, "Well you know these computers, it just happens." Well, things just don't happen. There is always a cause and to find the cause we must look. In many instances, that never happens; that is our fault.
Enjoy the day,
Bill