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  • Use of force

    Good day everyone
    My name is Ben Wallace and I have recently started working as a loss prevention officer in Ontario, I was previusly a uniformed security officer (2 months) before I applied for my dual ministry card, The area I am working loss prevention in, is rather notorius for its "rough" nature. My question is what techniques do you guys prefer to get the "bad guys" under control quickly ? I have trained in pressure point control tactics (PPCT management systems) Goju ryu Karate (6 years) Japanese Ju jitsu (6 years) Tai kwon do (1 year) Shaolin kung fu (on and off for 6 years) But these are mostly striking arts, I dont really want to rely on PPCT to control the struggling crack head, our use of force restrictions are (no head strikes because of HIV, and no neck restraints because of the danger to the trachia) So back to my initial question (before my rant) Do you guys have any favorite techniques you use to control the suspect with the minimum amount of force and can you please describe them, Also what do you do when you encounter resistance from the escort position ? I would assume you strike to the lateral femoral, or a straight arm bar, goose neck come along, I am open for suggestions.

    Please contribute all suggestions welcome
    thank you for your time and sorry for the lengthy post
    Ben Wallace

  • #2
    Basic come-a-long grasps, straight wristlock, straight armbar, knee drop armbar, figure eight hold, single wing lock, wing lock takedown, single leg scoop takedown, standing angular ankle sweep, pak-sao, larp-sao, jut-sao, tan-sao, taun-sao, knee thrusts to specific areas such as solar plexus and peronial nerve, leg scissors locks, palm pressing.

    Specific no-no moves around here include punching, especially with closed fists, boxing stances, high body and full circular judo-type throws, and most kicks including the popular round kicks and front hooking kicks and side kicks. Do those and kiss the career goodbye. I have been able to get away with a front thrust kick before that was designed to knock someone down but not damage organs though.
    "We appreciate all the hard work you've done, the dedicated hours you have worked, and the lives you have saved. However, since this is your third time being late to work, we are terminating your employment here."

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    • #3
      I like the carotid restraint myself. The college PD I worked for considered the carotid restraint controlling force so I was able to use it pretty freely. LAPD, however, put the carotid restraint in with deadly force so I never got to "choke someone out" while I worked there.

      The best counter to resistance from the escort position is the hair-pull-takedown. To make sure we are all on the same page, to me the escort position is one hand on the suspect's wrist and one hand on his elbow. If the suspect starts to resist take your hand off the suspect's elbow, but keep your other hand controlling the suspect's wrist. Then you simply grab a handful of hair with the hand you took off the suspect's elbow and yank straight down. If the suspect is bald or has very short hair that you cannot grab, reach around the suspect's head and grasp onto his forehead and yank. If done correctly, the suspect should end up flat on his back and you should still have control of his wrist. From there, roll the suspect onto his stomach and then handcuff. The second-best counter is the arm-bar-takedown.

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      • #4
        Soft open hand--> hard empty hand--> OC/CS-->Taser-->Blunt Force-->Blam Blam

        I always try to maximize space if I feel unsafe, always watch their hands. Things that are basic but you'd be surprised how often folks forget them when they need to use them.

        Whatever you do, just don't hit me in the face. It's the only thing I got goin' right now!
        Liability is never above officer safety. Do what you must to make sure you go home safe.

        William-2, 10-6 for 105. Yep, I'm at Starbucks!

        I may be gay, but I'll eff you up!

        Personal Web Site

        Cheap, Quality Web Design! Put a great cop on the beat by helping with my tuition! :-D

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        • #5
          Defensive Tactics

          Very important to remember the reactionary gap. If your 'spidey sense' is telling you the guy is gonna wanna fight, or run, be ready. If your too close, the only thing you'll be able to do is a pressure point, which if done incorrectly, is more annoying than painful.

          Wrist locks don't work on everyone. I have been involved with suspects whose hands touch their forearms without even flinching. This is where the almighty distraction technique comes in handy. If they are not responding to a arm bar, wrist lock, etc, then hit em with a knee to the thigh, hamstring or inner thigh. This will give you those precious few seconds to change tactics and go for another method which may be more effective.

          Keep your tools handy. The butt-end of my asp or streamlight is much more effective in putting pressure on a chosen pressure point than my thumb.

          You can know all the PPCT and martial arts in the world. It's how well you use the skills.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by astorms
            You can know all the PPCT and martial arts in the world. It's how well you use the skills.
            Amen astorms. I try to practice my arrest and control techniques at least once a week. If you do not use these skills then they diminish over time.

            Astorms was also correct when he said to always be prepared to transition to another hold, or technique, or another level of force. This does not come naturally and can only be done smoothly with a lot of practice. Not all control holds work on all people.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by astorms
              Wrist locks don't work on everyone. I have been involved with suspects whose hands touch their forearms without even flinching. This is where the almighty distraction technique comes in handy. If they are not responding to a arm bar, wrist lock, etc, then hit em with a knee to the thigh, hamstring or inner thigh. This will give you those precious few seconds to change tactics and go for another method which may be more effective...

              ...You can know all the PPCT and martial arts in the world. It's how well you use the skills.
              I really had trouble using a wristlock to put a real combative subject on the ground. I found it only really works after you have the subject off balance.

              How well you use it, exactly. Theoretical knowledge is useless compared to physical knowledge.
              "We appreciate all the hard work you've done, the dedicated hours you have worked, and the lives you have saved. However, since this is your third time being late to work, we are terminating your employment here."

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              • #8
                how big are you? physically overpowering with a straight armbar is all I have ever needed bouncing and I've never got in a physical altercation working straight up guard work.

                I'm 6'5 270lbs.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Canuck
                  how big are you? physically overpowering with a straight armbar is all I have ever needed bouncing and I've never got in a physical altercation working straight up guard work.

                  I'm 6'5 270lbs.
                  I've used the straight armbar without remembering to close the suspect's arm to my center of mass. Next thing you know, the suspect rolls out of it, or braces.

                  Straight up guard work is very different for some officers. Some of us are required to basically be police officers on our site, performing arrests and removals as the "first responder" to all criminal complaints on site. In that case, your going to get into a physical altercation. I've gotten in to quite a few of them, having to remove drunks, protect people from attack, and make arrests for felonies.
                  Some Kind of Commando Leader

                  "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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                  • #10
                    he claims 2 months experience and you're defending him, this site is a joke and I won't be positing here anymore.

                    good luck wannabes.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Canuck
                      he claims 2 months experience and you're defending him, this site is a joke and I won't be positing here anymore.

                      good luck wannabes.
                      Thank you for visiting, please remember to clear your cookies and cache upon leaving.

                      Straight up guard work is very different for some officers. Some of us are required to basically be police officers on our site, performing arrests and removals as the "first responder" to all criminal complaints on site. In that case, your going to get into a physical altercation. I've gotten in to quite a few of them, having to remove drunks, protect people from attack, and make arrests for felonies.
                      Your statement was, "I've never got in a physical altercation working straight up guard work."

                      I'm not actually defending Ben over there, merely pointing out the cultural differences in the profession. We carry weapons down here. We are tasked with protection of people, and in some cases, enforcement of law.

                      But, for some reason, you've taken to being offended by someone pointing those differences out. So, you lash out with an ad hominem attack against the site, and those on it. If things aren't how they are where you are, obviously its wrong, I guess.

                      For all your talk of people skills, you have failed to demonstrate them yourself. Instead of asserting your position, you think this is some kind of arguement, and that people are taking sides.
                      Last edited by N. A. Corbier; 04-08-2006, 07:36 AM.
                      Some Kind of Commando Leader

                      "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Canuck
                        he claims 2 months experience and you're defending him, this site is a joke and I won't be positing here anymore.

                        good luck wannabes.
                        The word is spelled p o s t i n g. If you want to take your marbles and play somewhere else just because you can't have your way, then go ahead. I recommend O.com. Have fun!
                        Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mr. Security
                          The word is spelled p o s t i n g. If you want to take your marbles and play somewhere else just because you can't have your way, then go ahead. I recommend O.com. Have fun!
                          Mr. Security, you are wrong for sending that guy to o.com...
                          I believe I speak for everyone here sir, when I say, to Hell with our orders.
                          -Lieutenant Commander Data
                          sigpic

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Tennsix
                            Mr. Security, you are wrong for sending that guy to o.com...
                            Sorry. I thought they could "help" him with his attitude.
                            Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Tennsix
                              Mr. Security, you are wrong for sending that guy to o.com...
                              No, no, they'll love him there.
                              Some Kind of Commando Leader

                              "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                              Comment

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