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  • help needed getting equipment approval

    Edited for privacy concerns and unable to get a deletion.
    Last edited by jer6141; 02-27-2008, 06:33 PM.

  • #2
    A PR-24, whether expandable or not, is a training intensive tool. That means many hours of training before it can be used as anything more than a bat. An straight expanadable baton, such as an ASP or similar design, is what it is: an impact tool. I know, I'm an instructor with both, that they are advertised an taught to be used defensively as a blocking tol and come-along, but primarily it will be swung at the treat. I think that you have a good force option with the OC spray and a lower liability. Also, what do you mean by a restrictive handcuff policy? Obviously you will be cuffing those who are being detained or those who you had to use force on, correct?
    Jerry
    http://personalprotectionconcepts.info

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    • #3
      Originally posted by jmaccauley View Post
      A PR-24, whether expandable or not, is a training intensive tool. That means many hours of training before it can be used as anything more than a bat. An straight expanadable baton, such as an ASP or similar design, is what it is: an impact tool. I know, I'm an instructor with both, that they are advertised an taught to be used defensively as a blocking tol and come-along, but primarily it will be swung at the treat. I think that you have a good force option with the OC spray and a lower liability. Also, what do you mean by a restrictive handcuff policy? Obviously you will be cuffing those who are being detained or those who you had to use force on, correct?
      I agree that spray (again, with appropriate training) would normally be preferable to the baton, on many levels. In fact, I'd rather see Tasers than batons.

      With refinements that will undoubtedly be made to the Taser, plus all the research that is going on in the area of nonlethal weapons, it wouldn't surprise me to see the baton, which is really a very crude "control device" when you come right down to it, disappear from common use by either police or security forces.
      "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

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      • #4
        Originally posted by jer6141
        thanks to two guys tackling and handcuffing another officer in dispatch, our current handcuf policy restricts us to only when authorized by or assisting a police officer. In the heat of the moment though, its taken a bit further in instances when we are being assaulted, they have a weapon or assaulting another subject and restraining them with handcuffs is the only way we are going to be able to control them till help can arrive.

        Either a straight baton or PR-24 would be a huge step up for us, given the area we aork in and the calls we get. Other accounts do carry ASP type batons, but these are the elite accounts that make the most money. I looked at a website today describing baton training and PR-24 is 40 hours worth of training I believe, if you're going to do it right. And it wouldnt be a problem to get local P.D.'s instructors to come in and do it since we have great relations with them. Just a matter of getting the director (who wouldnt be a problem), and property management to approve it, which is where we are getting stuck at. But an asp or the 24 would really be a help to us who are out there getting caught up in this mess.
        If you're only handcuffing at the direction of a police officer... Then the handcuffs are basically useless as the police are on scene and will be doing he handcuffing themselves.

        This is an awesome policy, it limits liability of use while still giving the ILLUSION of use. After all, they can tell the client, "All our security guards carry handcuffs," but they don't have to worry about anyone actually being handcuffed.

        Since its a police officer giving you an order, they may try to pawn off any liability on "the police officer gave that order."
        Some Kind of Commando Leader

        "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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        • #5
          One thing to remember about pepper spray, not everyone is affected by it.

          Taser's work on just about everyone, but cost close to $1000.00 each.

          Baton's, can be very effective when used properly, and also are a good deterrent.
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          • #6
            As my first post Iwould bring up the fact that a baton would not be used very often if at all.
            I have carried a baton in security and law enforcement for the past 10 years and have yet to pull it out other than in training. There are just so many better options than cranking on some guy with a steel rod. My suggestion would be to forget about the baton and get some good defensive tactics training. PPCT, ground fighting, even some handcuffing training all serves a better purpose than adding a couple pounds to the bat belt in a tool that will not be put to use very often if at all.
            Think about it, you already have cuffs, the courts have already accepted the argument that cuffing is a de-escalation technique. You have gone hands-on for a reason, de-escalate with propper cuffing and your golden. Work with what you have first, then move on to what you want. Its allot easier to justify new equipment and training after your are expert on what you have already.

            As was mentioned above, the PR24 is a very training intesive tool, a straight baton takes less than half the time to teach right. In private security something to keep in mind is that training does not make money and unfortuantely money is what so many clients and administrators are looking at every day.
            Wisdom - Having a lot to say, but knowing when to keep it to yourself.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by jer6141
              thanks to two guys tackling and handcuffing another officer in dispatch, our current handcuf policy restricts us to only when authorized by or assisting a police officer. In the heat of the moment though, its taken a bit further in instances when we are being assaulted, they have a weapon or assaulting another subject and restraining them with handcuffs is the only way we are going to be able to control them till help can arrive.

              Either a straight baton or PR-24 would be a huge step up for us, given the area we aork in and the calls we get. Other accounts do carry ASP type batons, but these are the elite accounts that make the most money. I looked at a website today describing baton training and PR-24 is 40 hours worth of training I believe, if you're going to do it right. And it wouldnt be a problem to get local P.D.'s instructors to come in and do it since we have great relations with them. Just a matter of getting the director (who wouldnt be a problem), and property management to approve it, which is where we are getting stuck at. But an asp or the 24 would really be a help to us who are out there getting caught up in this mess.
              The training for the ASP is actually 8 hrs. and the PR-24 is 40 hrs. for an instructor level certification. I can certify your entire agency in either if you are interested, but so can any of the instructors from Cincy PD. I'm sure some of them do contract training on the side. Check with them.
              Jerry
              http://personalprotectionconcepts.info

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              • #8
                PR 24's are not used in Australia and actually derived from a martial arts weapon. I have seen them in use during a demonstration exercise during my certification course, however no baton is of any use if it is still sitting in your car, bag or glove box with the sauce packets from McDonalds.

                As stated by others, any baton does take practice - practice - practice as there are times when you may not extend a expandable baton in time or you may have a straight baton and need it to defend yourself against your arm. Again I carried them for years, and never used them once. I see any weapon as a last resort but sometimes I have seen some LEO's pull them out as a visual form or intimidation and deterrence when dealing with an unruly group.

                This all depends on what the client wants and is willing to pay for as most security providers are more worried about $$$ and politicial correctness that the safety of their staff.
                "Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer" Sun Tzu

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                • #9
                  I must admit, I like batons for several reasons, including some already mentioned here.

                  I do have a question though about the starting post of this thread.

                  In it is mentioned that some of the guards carry their batons off duty, while they are in uniform. I am assuming you mean while they drive home.

                  If not, can you clarify when, and why they are doing this off duty.

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