Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What If You Get Shot?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • What If You Get Shot?

    This quote from a newsletter I receive (with permission to quote) crossed my desk this morning. Although the newsletter raised the topic in another context (the value of fear to terrorists), it raises a disturbing issue for us in a broader sense, and one that we don't like to talk about much:

    "Years ago, law enforcement trainers who studied officer-involved shootings made a disturbing discovery: A number of cops were dying from "nonfatal" wounds. In these cases, an officer who had been shot would go into shock and black out, even when the bullet had not struck a vital area. Some died as a consequence of shock; in other cases, the gunman involved followed through and administered a coup de grace.

    To combat this issue, many police departments and federal agencies embarked on an aggressive education campaign, teaching officers and agents that a gunshot wound is not always fatal and instructing them to continue to fight, even after being shot. A 1986 shooting involving the FBI and two bank robbers in Miami quickly became a case study used by trainers: A critically wounded criminal kept firing at the agents, and the gunfight was ended by an agent who, though seriously wounded, squeezed off several shotgun rounds with his one working arm. In the wake of the Miami shooting, many departments also implemented "disabled officer" range training courses, teaching police and government agents how to handle and fire their weapons when wounded." - Stratfor Terrorism Intelligence Report


    I have frankly never attended a firearms training course (and I can't remember them all) where "disabled officer shooting training" was provided (except "weak hand" shooting and "officer down" operations, of course) nor had I thought of including that in our own program. Can you withstand a nonfatal hit psychologically and keep on fighting? Can you operate your shotgun effectively with one hand? Can you change magazines? Would you know HOW to crawl to cover with a blasted shoulder or hip? (For instance, would you think of rolling instead of crawling. We like to think so...but you've been shot and PAIN takes over, remember.) Can you handle the sight of your own blood, and what do you do if you're losing what looks like a lot of it? What does "a lot of blood" even really look like when it soaks your pants leg, etc? (A little blood can look like an awful lot when it's your own and it's not inside you where it's supposed to be!)

    If you can't keep your wits about you after you've been shot, you're always going to be in much worse trouble than if you are prepared to take the next effective action available to you - whatever that might be.

    Looking at our discussions on the board here, we talk about things like "stopping power" of different calibers and loads, etc. Most of our discussions frankly assume quick, brief actions where the BG goes down for the count simply because we managed to hit him "in the right spot" and with the "right" load, whatever that is. We do frequently acknowledge that people with a high rush of adrenaline or on certain drugs can withstand sprays, pain application, and even Tasers, but exactly the same thing is true of such people when they're hit with fire that "should" take them down. That BG might very well just keep on shooting at you when logic tells you he should already be dead and buried. Besides, he might just have got the drop on you before you even managed to get off the first shot, so he's not hit at all!

    So, the question is: Can we keep on fighting when we're hit? It seems that we do need both psychological preparation for that possibility, and specific training on techniques as to how to keep on fighting if that happens.

    Anyway...this kind of training is definitely worth thinking about.
    Last edited by SecTrainer; 03-01-2007, 09:44 AM.
    "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

    "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

    "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

    "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

  • #2
    Good subject. I saw the movie based on this incidence down in the Everglades. I believe Micheal Gross was one of the lead characters I think that the reason that not much is written about this is due to the many variables. One being how will a person react to the sight of blood? I remember seeing a mechanics wrench slip and he basically banged his knuckles and the big 220 pound guy passed out at the sight of his own blood. Very little blood.

    Another while hunting a guy fired at us from a cross a pond. I was with a guy that was in the Coast Guard and never saw action and I was a couple months back from Nam. We both hit the ground and took cover. My friend had a lever action 3030 and jacked his full load through the chamber and never once pulled the trigger. I had a 306 and fired a shot in the air. So reaction is another factor.

    Then the big one is the location or damage done by the BGs slug. There are just to many that I have seen to even suggest how to react. I think it is mostly up to the individuals will to live. A guy with a sucking chest wound is for the most part in good condition physically and most likely will live if treated properly but he just will be unable to take in oxygen in the wounded lung. He would not be able to return fire as the lack of oxygen to the brain will have him disoriented.

    As for the drugged out BGs I can remember reading that during the Korean war this was a normal event to get the enemy stoned just prior to a charge against our forces. This sort of falls under the frame of mind and lack of fear the perps have. So seeing their own blood and the searing heat of the bullet wouldn't register as a bad thing I don't remember this taking place in Nam since the battles were to random.
    THE AVERAGE RESPONSE TIME FOR A 911 CALL IS FOUR MINUTES
    THE AVERAGE RESPONSE TIME FOR A .357 MAGNUM ROUND IS 1400 FEET PER SECOND?
    http://www.boondocksaints.com/

    Comment


    • #3
      LEOs "train" for this by going to a Street Survival seminar from PoliceOne/CalibrePress. Unfortunately, unless you have connections with a local police department's supervisory chain of comment, you're not invited.

      If you look at PSTN and LETN, you'll notice that LETN is teaching things like this, and PSTN is teaching things like, "How to provide good customer service," or "how to operate the TOCO system." And charging 600+ bucks for each course.

      The security industry just doesn't think about these things, because that would... you know... acknowledge a threat that they would have to train for.

      Now, the question is, how does the "industry" (and by that I mean the people who care) either get their people in a Street Survival Seminar, or how do they get CalibrePress to start doing them for security companies?
      Some Kind of Commando Leader

      "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

      Comment


      • #4
        I heard somewhere, that if you take the LFI classes by Massad Ayoob that in the last one his staff actually does something like draws a pint of blood and makes you shoot, and the next day he introduces epinephrine into the body and then makes you shoot. I am not sure of the logistics, legalities, or what have yous, just thought I'd throw that out to you guys.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by ctbgpo
          I heard somewhere, that if you take the LFI classes by Massad Ayoob that in the last one his staff actually does something like draws a pint of blood and makes you shoot, and the next day he introduces epinephrine into the body and then makes you shoot. I am not sure of the logistics, legalities, or what have yous, just thought I'd throw that out to you guys.
          Its legal, you sign a waiver.

          It took him long enough to figure out how to induce StressFIRE!(tm) into his program. That's the blood loss and the adrealine stuff.
          Some Kind of Commando Leader

          "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

          Comment


          • #6
            wow. very interesting topic, i would like to think that most of us could, but more then likely we probally cant, as i know that there is no training on the topic, to come to think of it that i can recall that i have ever recieved, i only recieved how to shoot from weak hand..... assuming your still able to stand and kneel. no prone shootting what so ever....
            Last edited by UtahProtectionForce; 10-15-2007, 06:51 PM.
            Its not how we die that counts.....
            Its not how we lived that counts....
            all that matters is how we saved that one life that one time by being in the right place at the right time....

            Comment


            • #7
              I would have to agree, this is a very interesting subject. I really do not care what a persons profession is, everything one does is all about the mindset. If you give up, then it is all over. I make sure to raise to adrenaline level of all my guys that carry a firearm. I try, some people seem to think they know everything and what you are teaching them is just to joke around, to instill the never give up mentality. I make every attempt to relay what happens to a person during a shooting in every aspect. I run the if you are wounded scenarios and follow this up with what the body does in reaction to this naturally and how to counter act this, after being wounded. I learned this the hard way in combat while I was in the Marines. I honestly believe if an Officer is going to be armed, they should fully understand what that means, not only the responsibilities before a shooting, but the after effects of you shooting a person, fatal or not, and then continue to operate until you are safe. At the beginning and towards the end of class, I ask them, can you live the rest of your life knowing that you shot/killed someone.
              Please note. I understand the word training can entail the next several years of discussion as to what should be involved in a class, but classes are limited to time, and in our line of work, training time is a luxury we do not have. One must cover as much as one can in a very short period of time.
              "You don't hurt 'em if you don't hit 'em."
              (Lieutenant General Lewis B. Puller, USMC, Marine, 1962.)

              Comment


              • #8
                I know my EMT training helps when seeing other peoples blood, and even my own, but if I was shot?

                I suppose being a ten gallon blood donor won't hurt me any. My body is accustomed to some blood loss on a regular basis.

                Comment


                • #9
                  If I get shot?

                  I quit!!
                  Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think it boils down to two things. (1) Training & exposure, and (2) ones own 'Fight or Flight' reaction. With training and exposure people have simulated the experience somehow or gained confidence through themselves training for a situation that they can do it. As for Fight or Flight, that is one's self-conscious doing. However, I believe as I am sure many others here do that ones natural Fight or Flight reaction can be greatly altered as a result of PROPER training.
                    I'm the guy you don't want to be around when your doing something wrong, but you can't wait for me to get there when your down, to fix you up...

                    If you don't stand behind our troops, feel free to stand in front of them.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      SecTrainer I think I've written before one of the prerequisites for graduation from the sheriffs academy was to successfully watch and participate in a question and answer session conducted by county coroner during autopsy.
                      Several of our biggest and toughest acting cadets passed out when the coroner started to make a "Y" incision. After two attempts and failures one was washed out.
                      Training and asking yourself what if....what if, what will I do, come in handy.
                      Having brain matter and blood splattered on my face and most of my body when I was in service helped me a great deal later with injury, death and dying. At the time I was a basket case but learned quickly. I will freely confess to having nightmares from so very long ago. They are not as frequent but they still do come.
                      Dealing with burned bodies and the stench of dead bodies is something that never leaves you. Some folks are not cut out for it and my admiration goes to police, fire, emt, doctors, nurses and undertakers that deal with it on a daily basis.
                      The security profession is remiss in not providing the type of training that would prepare a person for such an emergency.
                      In the very near future, I fear, that training will be requisite.
                      Enjoy the day,
                      Bill

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        To carry a Taser officers are often shocked to familirize them to the effects of the device.
                        To carry pepper spray they have to be sprayed in the face to prove they can Fight Through It.
                        They carry pistols.... yet they are dying from nonfatal wounds and not learning to fight through their injuries. Based on the training required for other gear it's clear to me what has to be done.






                        Hospital Security Officer

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The unspoken assumption in almost all police "combat fire" training is that officers will only be involved in quick, decisive engagements resulting in successful outcomes - the bad guys are killed or injured and the good guys go home for supper without a scratch, humming snatches of Broadway show tunes. This obviously comes under the heading of "magical thinking".

                          The same is true of a lot of SD training...the guy you're fighting with isn't a 400-pound "trained adversary". In fact, he's actually a little old lady who got confused, put on her husband's clothes, and is now threatening to poke you with a hat pin.

                          Or, maybe he's a black belt in karate who says "excuse me" while he dives into his closet for his costume (Gi), throws down a mat and then bows six times before screeching "aaaaaa-yah!" and running head-on into your baton. (Those 27 minutes of advance warning prior to his attack were very helpful and gave you time to find the baton on your duty belt and work it free, dropping it on the ground several times.)

                          "Training at the speed of life"...and lots of it....is the only thing that will prepare anyone for real confrontations. Nothing is more unnerving than sudden and totally unexpected violence. Training should try to simulate that, as well as being partially incapacitated by injury. I think the question isn't even so much whether you will keep on fighting, because the will to live is very strong. The question is, are you TRAINED to keep on fighting when your strong hand is useless because your arm's been busted?
                          Last edited by SecTrainer; 10-16-2007, 03:19 AM.
                          "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                          "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                          "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                          "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I attended an advanced firearms training course (restricted) a few years ago. It was only 2 at a time and it was under 2 range officers for safety. We were to run on the spot for 30 seconds or so we thought as fast as possible with knees up high and then to shoot 4 rounds ( 2 shots, reload, 2 shots) at the centre mass in under 5 seconds. Most of the group got off the first 2 rounds reloaded and fired 2 more rounds but a search is still looking for those 2 rounds since the simulated adrenalin, fatigue and flight / fight stress just proves a point.

                            A 20 year police veteran in my state a few years ago, was 6 feet away from an offender who brought out a knife. He reached for his gun and shot 5 rounds in rapid fire. Only 2 hit the offender and the rest missing the target. It came down to adrenalin and fear as reality hit home.

                            We all like to think we can handle stress in a life and death situaiton but what about our colleagues ? Will they be reliable to back you up when it hits the fan ? Training, role playing, drills and more training can only go in our favours provided complacency is not allowed to enter the equation.
                            "Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer" Sun Tzu

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by NRM_Oz View Post
                              I attended an advanced firearms training course (restricted) a few years ago. It was only 2 at a time and it was under 2 range officers for safety. We were to run on the spot for 30 seconds or so we thought as fast as possible with knees up high and then to shoot 4 rounds ( 2 shots, reload, 2 shots) at the centre mass in under 5 seconds. Most of the group got off the first 2 rounds reloaded and fired 2 more rounds but a search is still looking for those 2 rounds since the simulated adrenalin, fatigue and flight / fight stress just proves a point.

                              A 20 year police veteran in my state a few years ago, was 6 feet away from an offender who brought out a knife. He reached for his gun and shot 5 rounds in rapid fire. Only 2 hit the offender and the rest missing the target. It came down to adrenalin and fear as reality hit home.

                              We all like to think we can handle stress in a life and death situaiton but what about our colleagues ? Will they be reliable to back you up when it hits the fan ? Training, role playing, drills and more training can only go in our favours provided complacency is not allowed to enter the equation.
                              I am really surprised he was able to get off any rounds at all considering the distance. Normally if someone is less than 21-feet from the officer, they are pretty much gone. Your police veteran was lucky indeed.
                              Enjoy the day,
                              Bill

                              Comment

                              Leaderboard

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X