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  • Training Blunders

    What are some training blunders that you have done or have seen? The purpose of this is to try learn from our mistakes and hopefully keep others from the same ones.

    Mine was when I was in my PC 832 Firearms class. We were going through drills with a glock 17 Airsoft. The scenario I was in was a fight with two suspects and one victim. One suspect had a crow bar. When I came into play I instructed the suspects to Drop the weapon, They didn't, I pulled my Airsoft and instructed them to stop again. The unarmed suspect dropped to the ground while the one with the crow bar started to walk off. I instructed him to stop and when he did not comply I fired 4 pellets hitting him. It ended up being un justified. I hadn't noticed he had dropped the crowbar. And because i shot him in the back with 3 out of the four pellets. 2 in the 10 ring and 1 in the upper shoulder.
    Last edited by tlangsr; 02-27-2007, 08:46 PM. Reason: misunderstanding
    Todd

  • #2
    Why engage with lethal force while he's walking away? He had a melee weapon, correct? I can see engaging if he approaches you, he's armed with a melee weapon and you are in fear for your life.

    But, firing because the person is walking off... Fleeing Felon doctrine, or what? I taser or OC somebody who walks off and they're under arrest, I don't shoot em in the back. Unless they have a gun, or I believe they have a gun.
    Some Kind of Commando Leader

    "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

    Comment


    • #3
      lethal force is used in protection of your self and others. a lethal weapon isn't always a gun, it can be a car a knife or a crow bar. when the guy walked off I hadn't noticed that he had dropped the crow bar so I don't know if he is going to hurt someone else, maybe even kill them, I also didn't have any intermidiate weapons. needless to say, I am very lucky it was training
      Last edited by tlangsr; 02-27-2007, 09:53 PM.
      Todd

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by tlangsr
        lethal force is used in protection of your self and others. a lethal weapon isn't always a gun, it can be a car a knife or a crow bar. when the guy walked off I hadn't noticed that he had dropped the crow bar so I don't know if he is going to hurt someone else, maybe even kill them. needless to say, I am very lucky it was training
        You wouldn't be able to know if a grandmother walking past you on the street was going to kill or hurt someone either. I don't know US law but I don't think you can shoot someone because you THINK they MIGHT do something, until you see them actually about to do it!
        I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
        Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by HotelSecurity
          You wouldn't be able to know if a grandmother walking past you on the street was going to kill or hurt someone either. I don't know US law but I don't think you can shoot someone because you THINK they MIGHT do something, until you see them actually about to do it!
          I stand corrected, If i had reason to believe he was going to inflict great bodily harm or death on some one else I would've been justified. As I said earlier, I am lucky that it was training with Plastic Pellets. I may have been justified with the fleeing felon law, had it been a fleeing felon scenario, however that is tricky to.
          Last edited by tlangsr; 02-27-2007, 10:19 PM.
          Todd

          Comment


          • #6
            That's correct, you may have been justified under the fleeing felon doctrine, but only if California law specifically authorizes lethal force to stop the flight of a felon.

            In Florida, all other means must be exhausted, and only for forcible felons (felons who use violence in commission of a felony act). That includes calling 911. Case law requires the law enforcement officer (since 99% of all fleeing felon case law is specifically for law enforcement, not citizens) to balance the threat to society with the sanctity of human life.

            It is always easier to reengage the target and use verbal commands, and then intermediate weapons to stop his flight.

            Keep in mind, I noticed you didn't have intermediate weapons during training and I understand that. However, "on the street," that's a position of disadvantage, even though companies love to put guards on the street without anything but a revolver and 6 shots.

            You have two levels of force. Presence/Verbal and Lethal.
            Some Kind of Commando Leader

            "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

            Comment


            • #7
              I think the biggest blunder I have witnessed in training happened to me as a member of an entry team in the USN.

              We stacked at the door and upon opening I as lead man tripped over tangle-foot wire inside the room, VERY but it taught me also.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
                That's correct, you may have been justified under the fleeing felon doctrine, but only if California law specifically authorizes lethal force to stop the flight of a felon.

                In Florida, all other means must be exhausted, and only for forcible felons (felons who use violence in commission of a felony act). That includes calling 911. Case law requires the law enforcement officer (since 99% of all fleeing felon case law is specifically for law enforcement, not citizens) to balance the threat to society with the sanctity of human life.

                It is always easier to reengage the target and use verbal commands, and then intermediate weapons to stop his flight.

                Keep in mind, I noticed you didn't have intermediate weapons during training and I understand that. However, "on the street," that's a position of disadvantage, even though companies love to put guards on the street without anything but a revolver and 6 shots.

                You have two levels of force. Presence/Verbal and Lethal.
                California does but it also depends on your agency's Policy on the use of force. My agency, in writing, authorizes the same levels. Verbally they tell us we will be fired if we use the later level. I miss the job not the agency.
                Todd

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by tlangsr
                  The unarmed suspect dropped to the ground while the one with the crow bar started to walk off. I instructed him to stop and when he did not comply I fired 4 pellets hitting him. It ended up being un justified. I hadn't noticed he had dropped the crowbar. And because i shot him in the back with 3 out of the four pellets. 2 in the 10 ring and 1 in the upper shoulder.
                  I know what you were thinking (not noticing he dropped the crowbar) - to prevent the escape of an armed felon...and if he had been attacking the victim in the fight with the crowbar, he IS an armed felon at that moment.

                  In real life, security officers often find themselves in a much more precarious position - legally and practically - when it comes to using deadly force to prevent felony escape, compared with using it to stop an ongoing immediate threat. A lot of juries seem to feel that if you've interrupted the immediate threat and the perp runs away you've done your job and it becomes an LE problem.

                  Taking this scenario to real life, you have stopped the fight, you have one perp already surrendering who needs to be taken into custody and you might have a victim who needs attention...and then you have the other perp leaving. Assume he does still have the crowbar...you just don't have sufficient information that he presents a danger to others to be able to justify popping a pill into him. It might be different if he had been carrying a firearm, and certainly different if he had moved toward you with the crowbar rather than moving away.

                  The main lesson (for real life) might be this: Sometimes one guy can't do it all. A lone officer, whether security or LE, who comes on a situation involving multiple perps is often going to "lose" one or more of them when they scatter. That has to be handled by the followup investigation, questioning the perp(s) you do manage to glom onto, etc. You sure don't want to lose one perp while trying to bag both of them.

                  So...you let the other guy go (with or without crowbar), noting his description and direction of travel in your mind, call for backup or 911 (if you haven't already) and then manage the other issues (cuffing one perp and attending to the vic) that are now right in front of you, and which are actually more immediate in this situation.

                  SEQUENCING (assuming POST ORDERS do not dictate otherwise):

                  1. Fight in progress is observed.

                  2. Call for backup immediately if possible, reporting location and situation - just the immediate facts. If it is already apparent you have or probably have a vic with injuries, include request for medical aid. Whether you can or cannot accomplish step #2, move to step #3.

                  3. Assuming you can do so with reasonable safety* AND assuming you do not have standing orders to the contrary, interrupt the fight. Actions of perps at this point will determine your next actions. For the sake of the scenario you had, with one surrendering and one fleeing perp:

                  4. Note description/direction of fleeing perp. At least there's one less guy for you to have to deal with at the moment, and someone will catch up with him sooner or later. You have his compadre, who presumably knows him, and the vic might also know him.

                  5. Control and cuff the surrendering perp; check for weapons. Better: If you can see or hear backup arriving on scene, delay cuffing momentarily. Order the perp to lie face down with arms/legs spread and not to move, controlling him that way until there is a second cover officer in position for the cuffing.

                  6. Attend to the vic promptly the minute the scene is under control and summon medical aid if needed. If you're not sure, summon aid as a precautionary measure. Better safe than sorry when the vic (who assured you he was "just fine") goes home and collapses. Get what information you can about the incident from the vic...you might need to get more at the hospital.

                  7. Now the immediate issues are handled and you can throttle back just a bit. The following actions will not necessarily take place in any particular order, although what follows is a good sequence:

                  a. Depending on the gravity of the incident, you might have a crime scene on your hands. I won't go into all of that procedure, except to say that in any event it will be necessary to recover the crowbar. Who does this, and how, will depend entirely on the situation (CSI involved, etc.). In any event, it must be protected until recovered. You can't let it mysteriously disappear in the confusion. Hopefully, you have others on scene by now to help you with issues like this and also with steps "b" and "c".
                  b. Check the scene for witnesses to the incident, asking them to stand by "for just a few minutes, if you would please" (and separating them if possible). If they refuse to stay, make every effort to obtain their ID/contact info. You may not legally prevent them from leaving if they were not actually involved in the incident, so sometimes all you get is their vehicle license number, or maybe pick up their name and that they "work in the bakery across the street", etc. from someone else in the crowd who knows them.
                  c. As promptly as reasonably possible, surrender the perp in your custody to LE (if LE was not your backup). This is a very high priority, legally, in most jurisdictions...the clock starts ticking and defense attorneys love to raise this issue.
                  d. Provide LE with info regarding fleeing perp and any other pertinent information you've obtained from the vic and the witnesses.
                  e. Write the incident report. This may or may not require following up with the vic at the hospital, witnesses, etc. to fill in gaps.

                  When you write out sequences like this, it always looks like a million things to do, but actually most of these action items only take a few seconds or a few minutes and there's a kind of natural "flow" from one to the next anyway.

                  * OFFICER SAFETY: There are many situations - not only crimes in progress - where instinct will tell you to rush in where angels fear to tread, especially when someone else is in danger, and you only end up as a victim yourself. Doing this is not only unprofessional, it rarely helps the victim anyway, and it vastly complicates the situation for the backup to have an officer down. Taking actions available to you, but consistent with preserving a reasonable degree of officer safety, is not selfishness or cowardice - it's just good tactics.
                  Last edited by SecTrainer; 03-01-2007, 08:46 AM.
                  "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                  "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                  "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                  "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

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                  • #10
                    considering I was transporting inmates at the time, that is exactly what I was thinking. The jury still doesn't look to kindly to an officer (LE or security) shooting a perp in the back though.
                    Todd

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                    • #11
                      For me it was getting into security. Seriously though, the most thing I've done is lock myself out on a fire escape in the middle of winter with FREEZING temperatures. Building 4 was constructed differently than the other three and I left the floor to walk out to what I thought was a stairwell. I let the door go before I realized my mistake and it locked behind me.

                      We didn't have cell phones or radios, so I had no way of getting help aside from yelling at passersby’s. Since that would have been even more embarrassing, I climbed up to the roof, unlocked an elevator machine room door (I had that key) and climbed down a steel ladder to the top floor.

                      Of course I set off all kinds of alarms in the process and had some explaining to do to the other watchmen.
                      Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

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                      • #12
                        I've done that, the client had to let me in though. it was pretty embarassing.
                        Todd

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mr. Security
                          Of course I set off all kinds of alarms in the process and had some explaining to do to the other watchmen.

                          Mr. Security. I am going to report you for posting a bad post the next time you swear in one of your posts. . I don't like being called a GUARD. I HATE being called a WATCHMAN!
                          I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
                          Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by HotelSecurity
                            Mr. Security. I am going to report you for posting a bad post the next time you swear in one of your posts. . I don't like being called a GUARD. I HATE being called a WATCHMAN!
                            That was back in the early 80's and the watchman title was common. No offense intended, HotelGuard, err I mean HotelWatchman, no wait, HotelSecurity.
                            Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Mr. Security
                              That was back in the early 80's and the watchman title was common. No offense intended, HotelGuard, err I mean HotelWatchman, no wait, HotelSecurity.
                              Housedick
                              I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
                              Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

                              Comment

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