What training do you have ?

[Defensive tactics]

Hey everyone
I havent posted a DT type thread in a while and I am doing injustice to my screen name lol. There for I ask what martial arts or defensive training have you recieved what were your thoughts on the principles/ techniques in the system, would you train in it consistantly ? and have you had to modify it for security work. Lets start with me

Okinawa Goju ryu Karate-I find the nature of this style very applicable to work based of the close quarter nature of it (knee strikes, elbow strikes, forearm strikes, shoulder strikes) but I dont like the high and low blocks in the style I prefer to block kicking attacks with my legs (thigh block look at thai boxing for an example of this) and do body shift out of the way of high attacks. Goju ryu talks a lot about power generation at close quarters and doesnt rely on tappy tappy point fighting principles.

Yamanaka ha aiki ju jutsu-Great style. I like the over the hip style throws but they tend not to jive well with articulation in use of force reports, the arm locks and wrist locks have great use for low levels of force, I like the yasumi waza (striking in a totally relaxed manner) it tends to send a shock wave into the suspect

BJJ-I like the style for "live training" the takedowns are quick and realistic, but on a negative note I dont want to be rolling around with someone on the gravel when I have my duty belt or tactical folder on

stay safe
Ben

[Mr. Security]

Defensive Training

Run as fast as I can.

[hisownhero]

Run as fast as I can.

I second that. That and I'd take Gun Fu over Kung Fu anyday.

[Defensive tactics]

"I second that. That and I'd take Gun Fu over Kung Fu anyday."

I was somewhat hoping someone would say this, What happens if your at contact range and cant succesfully drive stun with your weapon, or you have just fired off all your rounds at other suspects and the last one is closing on you, or more likely you are stripped of your weapon by the suspect. The idea of this thread with to show that principles trumph techniques, For example I showed that goju ryu has a tendancy to work close in to an attacker but keep in mind you dont always have to punch, you can check the arm, drive with the hip, deploy a tactical folder into the suspect, or takedown

stay safe
Ben

[hisownhero]

Very good moves. I'd say definately for close combat that you can't beat having martial arts experience if your weapons are rendered useless or unavailable. But in a situation where I'm being charged at by an attacker with a weapon or some nut that starts going beserk, my first instinct is to draw either my gun, tazer or baton.

Excellent point though. I'd rather be prepared with martial arts training for all possibilities then not have any training and have to go hand to hand with a crackhead.

[Professional Rent-a-Cop]

I am trained in several kinds of MA, inclduding Jiu Jitsu, taekwon-do, Judo, Kung Fu, and Krav Maga. Most of the Utah agencies are now actually requiring their officers (experienced patrol guys especially) take Krav Maga, and it is the only art aside from BJJ that is used by PD SWAT teams in this state. If I am in a close-quarters situation, there is no time or room to deploy my firearm, and I would most likely end up using a hard hands or takedown technique rather than use any of duty equipment. After I get the suspect into a position where I have established control, I would then either deploy my handcuffs, or another tool such as my asp or OC spray if I need to, depending on the situation. I also advise some of my guys who are certified in tazer, particularly the X26, to deploy that either with or without the barbs. The issue about using the stun gun without barbs that's available on the X26 is that you may also be hit with the current if you are in close quarters combat, so I always caution as to what they are doing with it.

[FederalSecurity]

I have had martial arts training in the past, plus the Defensive Tactics

learned for my current position. I believe I could utilize kicking techniques

from my Tae Kwon Do training, since my Defensive Tactics training also

taught kicking. My years of boxing practice are, unfortunately, a different

story. While I understand the reasoning behind closed fist striking being

frowned upon, it's what I'm most comfortable with and skilled at.

[Dam Guard]

Taekwondo and Hapkido but that was way back in the day. I have also been through defensive tactics courses in the past. The last 5 years our training has been PPCT. We only get part of the training however,because we do not carry batons so we don't get that training. I would like to do the whole PPCT course but, I ain't in charge. I am a beliver in batons, as long as there is training with them too.

[Mall Director]

We use alot of the PPCT hapkido and so on, then I also implimented alot more of the Brazilian ground Jujitsu, having learned that in the Army. It is wonderful, because it puts you at the most disadvantaged spot, and expected to come out of it. "Shrimp to your left, Shrimp to your right"..LOL!

[Defensive tactics]

There seems to be a trend towards PPCT among the security comunity, there is varying opinions some say the system is useless and is more to protect the department against law suits then it is protect the officer against a suspect : other opinions state that PPCT is an effective system for low level resistance but not against aggravated assult resistance, the last argument I have heard states that PPCT is a good base but alone it is not effective, I tend to agree with the latter statement: PPCT is a good base (certian techniques) and can become potent IF combined with another system. I find the principles in PPCT sound but some of the techniques are tough to execute well under combat stress.

1. most resistance occurs upon touch pressure
2. you want to over load the body with two plus strikes to the motor points (common peroneal/radial)
3. Commonality of techniques

I have heard the above principles preached by several Defensive tactics instructors over the years, But I digress some security personal take PPCT to be the be all end off of DT.

Does anyone have an opinion on this system ?

[Dam Guard]

I have to agree with most of what you said. The strikes PPCT teaches are pretty good and I have been told the baton techniques are good. The pressure points hurt when manipulated but in my opinion are only good for someone who is mildly resisting. It isn't a perfect system but then I have never seen one that is. I do think it is designed to keep depts out of trouble.

[Dam Guard]

I think I heard somewhere that PPCT is now doing some high stress scenario based training in hopes of adressing some of these concerns. If so then I would have to say they are headed in the correct direction.

[1stWatch]

... I find the principles in PPCT sound but some of the techniques are tough to execute well under combat stress.

1. most resistance occurs upon touch pressure
2. you want to over load the body with two plus strikes to the motor points (common peroneal/radial)
3. Commonality of techniques

I took the PPCT course around five years ago. It was useful for me only for the fact it showed some useful handcuffing methods, by virtue of gripping the cuffs properly, deploying them to wrists, and applying them to wristlocks. I also came to the same conclusion regarding the effectiveness of the system in a real application because of the way the applications were drilled in the classroom and the type of/lack of physical involvement in the training. I was into martial arts training before I got into this line of work and am still fascinated with the relevance or irrelevance of those applications. Most of the individuals who came out of that class were not prepared to face a real attack, barehanded or otherwise.

It seems to me they could have added some types of skills to the curriculum to make it more realistic.
1) Greater emphasis on mobile footwork. This covers not only balanced mobility on foot, ie closing distance and evasion, but also facing, and awareness of angles.
2) Visual awareness and reflexiveness. This would include an awareness of a person's attributes, size, strength, speed, etc and its relation to proper response. It would also increase a person's awareness of how to more closely read a suspect's signs of resistance and telegraphs.
3) Applications against an aggressive attacker. I remember no drills to counter common attacks like punches, shoves, grips, chokes, and kicking. To me, this should be basic. I remember some sound grappling principles, but I think some other methods should be integrated along with this. It would be fascinating to see methods from the Wing Chun system integrated. This would make it where the principles of the PPCT system would remain the same, but the practitioner would be more proficient against someone trying to knock his/her block off.
4) More comprehensive motor point striking. I remember going over striking methods they called "stuns" which were basically forearm smashes or palm strikes against points like the common peroneal nerve in the leg or the brachial tie-in, located between the front shoulder and chest area. The simplicity of the stuns was effective in principle; however, the methods in which these were deployed left the practitioner open to being wrestled down too easily. I have never seen a person effectively use stuns in a live application in the way they were taught in the course. This could be compensated for by more drilling on recovery/disengagement of the hands and integration with the other aspects of the system.
5) Supervised sparring application. With the proper protective gear and proper supervision, students can pair up and practice applications with live movement. This allows for maximized resistance and an element of unpredictability which is more realistic. It can be practiced on a more controlled level, such as when learning to apply moves like the iron wristlock, or on a freestyle basis, when the student is more adept and can be applied against more lifelike aggressive movements.

[FederalSecurity]

As I'm writing this, I am almost finished with an Intermediate Force

Instructor Certification Course given by the Department of Energy. Most of

the techniques are sound, and with practice, they would be very viable.

The Edged Weapon Defense among others, however, is downright foolish in

my opinion.

[Dam Guard]

Did they teach this technique? This about the only video I have seen on the web of the brachial stun technique.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2004289608178741616&q=pimp+slap&hl=en