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Elderly Security Guard Attacked

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  • Ron Jessee
    replied
    I use a level 2 holster. I tried to use a retention holster but the thing would just not give up the gun as fast as I'd like it to. I'm not trying to be the Waco Kid from Blazing Saddles, but I like my holster nice and snug against me so it doesnt snag on anything. And my current rig can be pulled on the belt enough for access from the weak hand in case my right arm is out of the fight.

    A lot of people forget- or are just never taught- that action always beats reaction. No matter how fast on the draw you are, the bad guy has allready made the choice and muscle movements to draw before it even registers in your brain. The only thing I've been taught to do in this case is to get to cover immediately, or stick your arm up to cover the face and vitals until you can present to position 4. Just keep moving.

    Leave a comment:


  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    The same idiot just popped a button. NO MORE BUTTONS.

    We're left with Velcro, sir. I'll be ordering parachute pants.

    Leave a comment:


  • SecTrainer
    replied
    Originally posted by UtahProtectionForce View Post
    My company dicates this, you MUST CARRY UNLOADED, only patrol is allowed to chamber a round, they have had idoit incidents where as s/g plays with gun, shoots self in foot and toilet in a building afterhours.......

    YOU CAN BE TAUGTH TO SHOT THIS WAY, and if taugth proper you will have cocked, centered massed and steadied trigger in the same amount of time more or less then a fraction difference, plus it gives you that extra half second to make sure you are sure you want to fire, and to make sure that the perp is a real threat and not some kid with a squirt gun painted black..
    Once again, a regulation based on what a few idiots do, but appllied to everyone. Why do we "manage by the lowest common denominator"?? Bit by bit, it's the idiots who wind up dictating company operations and policies.

    Did some idiot stab himself in the eye with a pencil? NO MORE PENCILS!

    Did some idiot catch his dink in his zipper? NO MORE ZIPPERS!

    Leave a comment:


  • UtahProtectionForce
    replied
    emptied.. sorry didnt know it got full at 50

    Leave a comment:


  • BadBoynMD
    replied
    It may help if you empty your messages, ole popular one.....

    Leave a comment:


  • UtahProtectionForce
    replied
    I trust my glock, i got because i dont want to have to fumble with safeties when SHTF, however while i work under someone, i will forever be subject to thier policies, and termination for failure to do so, so while still working for the man yes ill carry unchammbered, however when i get my company functioning after i move, anytime i carry, will be chammbered, also note, that the instructor is a police instructor for union pacific rail, he doesnt agree with the method of practice, he is also a sig and glock armorer, but he teaches us as our company tells him to teach us. but anyhow, i do what im told, and nonetheless, i want to leave on good terms with my current company and in good relations with my boss, whereas i can use him for reference in the future, but failure to abide by company policies can lead to other things, however unlike BHR i do not like carring unloaded, i only do it because thats what the company i work for says.... until then nothing i do will change. I will be willing to discuss this further in PM, or chat about why and how... please fire away in PM :P


    Anyways love you guys! all i was trying to say is that you can be taught to shot that way......

    Im sure other companies have had incidents of accidental shootings because some bum of a guard.....

    but love... to ya alls...

    Leave a comment:


  • LPGuy
    replied
    Originally posted by Chucky View Post
    Not really that crazy. The DEA instructor that shot himself in the foot while teaching a class on gun handling and the lady cop that was giving cover to another cop cuffing a perp fired accidentally. Both were using Glocks with the safety on the trigger. My work gun is a Glock and I never chamber a round unless I really need it.
    As was already pointed out, both of these incidents occurred because both officers violated a universal firearms safety rule: Keep your finger indexed until you are on target and ready to shoot. If the rule isn't violated, accidents don't happen. Notice the rule says nothing about whether or not the gun is loaded, because the first rule states: Treat all firearms as if they are loaded. You don't press the trigger on supposedly unloaded firearms in class, and you don't pull the trigger when you're high on adrenaline and running up to a scene. These negligent discharges are due to a lack of training, not whether or not a round should be chambered. Otherwise, you'd believe it's okay to pull the trigger on a firearm with a loaded magazine, just as long as a round hasn't been chambered.

    No, of course that isn't okay.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hospital Security Dude
    replied
    Originally posted by Chucky View Post
    Not really that crazy. The DEA instructor that shot himself in the foot while teaching a class on gun handling and the lady cop that was giving cover to another cop cuffing a perp fired accidentally. Both were using Glocks with the safety on the trigger. My work gun is a Glock and I never chamber a round unless I really need it.

    If you don't trust your weapon or yourself then you need better training or a different duty weapon. The problem with the 2 idiots mentioned above is that in the first case the idiot did not check and recheck to see if his weapon was unloaded and the second one the she-idiot hand no business with her finger on the trigger. Don't blame the gun for lack of training or improper gun handling. If you insist on carrying with an empty chamber have you considered what you do if your weak hand was out of service. Have you practiced racking the slide one handed?
    Last edited by Hospital Security Dude; 08-27-2007, 06:39 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • BadBoynMD
    replied
    plus it gives you that extra half second to make sure you are sure you want to fire, and to make sure that the perp is a real threat and not some kid with a squirt gun painted black..
    I'm confused here...

    1. That half second (as I've said a few times) could make a difference between you going home to your comfy warm bed, or in a wooden box headed northbound. When I suit up, and hit the bricks, i'm coming back home.

    2. How in the H-E-double hockey sticks can you tell the difference between a real gun, and a squirt gun painted all black? It's really simple, you don't obey my verbal commands (with a gun pointed at you), then yeah you're gonna get shot. It's just that easy. I'm not going to sit there and think is that real or not. If you have a taser, oc, pole, bat, stick (thick enough to cause severe damage), a bottle, knife..etc.. again you're gonna get shot, if you don't obey verbal commands. However, if this knucklehead has his firearm pointed at the ground or away from me, okay I am going to do what it takes to not have to shoot them. However, once it swings towards my direction it's game over.

    3. I think your company has that ridiculous rule, just to cover their own arses, because they are too cheap to provide real training. I've seen and heard countless times of companies having other officers fire rounds into a officers target, because they couldn't shoot for nothing.

    4. Here's a scenario for you all that think you can handle a unchambered weapon "fast". You're walking around doing some rounds, and you cut a corner, and walk down the hallway, and then out comes a subject with a gun. You have no where to go for cover. Still think you're gonna be fast enough?

    Leave a comment:


  • ValleyOne
    replied
    I truely feel sorry for BHR Lawson-who knows it's not smart to carry unchambered but chooses to do so. And also, for UPF, who (it seems) does not know any more than what was taught. Despite that information being wrong.

    Lawson, you said your LEO duty belt is set up with a Level II holster, and yet your security duty belt is not, why are they not the same belt? I recall you said you cannot afford to purchase a level II holster for your security set up, I take it you carry two different types of firearms for the two jobs?

    If all you need is a freakin' Level II holster PM me and we can work something out. I have a few holsters that will fit a Glock, or maybe whatever it is that you are carrying.

    There is no way to express how unsafe and insane this practice is.

    Just because Wyatt Earp did it in the Old West does not mean he would do it with today's knowledge of firearms and technology. Think about it, how often did they even clean those guns?

    Leave a comment:


  • LPGuy
    replied
    Originally posted by UtahProtectionForce View Post
    My company dicates this, you MUST CARRY UNLOADED, only patrol is allowed to chamber a round, they have had idoit incidents where as s/g plays with gun, shoots self in foot and toilet in a building afterhours.......
    Let me hazard a guess and say that you do not have any professional firearms instructors making company policy decisions, because those policies are ridiculous. The idiots that are playing with guns and accidentally discharging them have no bearing on whether or not a pistol should be carried with a round chambered. In fact, I have a better solution: FIRE THE IDIOTS.

    Originally posted by UtahProtectionForce
    YOU CAN BE TAUGTH TO SHOT THIS WAY,
    I can also teach you to draw your pistol, spin it around with your finger in the trigger guard, pass it behind your back to your weak hand, and then aim at your target, but that doesn't make it a good shooting style.


    Originally posted by UtahProtectionForce
    if taugth proper you will have cocked, centered massed and steadied trigger in the same amount of time more or less then a fraction difference,
    Hands down, you will not be as fast as I am if you use this method. I will have also shot a round or two before you are firing your weapon.


    Originally posted by UtahProtectionForce
    plus it gives you that extra half second to make sure you are sure you want to fire, and to make sure that the perp is a real threat and not some kid with a squirt gun painted black..
    In real firearms training, we aren't looking for "extra half seconds" to be sure we're shooting what we want to shoot. Your weapon should not be pointed at someone, nor should your finger be on the trigger until you've made that decision. Brush up on your universal firearms safety rules, of which are included, "Never point your weapon at anything you're not willing to destroy," and "Keep your finger indexed until you are ready to fire."

    Your gun will not fire until you make it do so, regardless of whether or not you have a round chambered. The practice of carrying unchambered is an obsolete method that was used years ago when people were scared to carry safety-less semiautomatics, namely Glocks in particular. People were worried about accidental discharges when drawing their weapons because of the lack of a manual safety. However, you should never be drawing your pistol with your finger on the trigger in the first place!

    There's really no practical reason to continue carrying unchambered.

    Leave a comment:


  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Let me get this straight. Your company allows one type of guard to carry chambered, but not others?

    I'm surprised the state building authorizes non-functional weapons on their post. If the weapon is not chambered, it is non-functional.

    Leave a comment:


  • UtahProtectionForce
    replied
    Originally posted by LPGuy View Post
    No serious rangemaster would. This is a personal choice made by BHR Lawson.
    My company dicates this, you MUST CARRY UNLOADED, only patrol is allowed to chamber a round, they have had idoit incidents where as s/g plays with gun, shoots self in foot and toilet in a building afterhours.......

    YOU CAN BE TAUGTH TO SHOT THIS WAY, and if taugth proper you will have cocked, centered massed and steadied trigger in the same amount of time more or less then a fraction difference, plus it gives you that extra half second to make sure you are sure you want to fire, and to make sure that the perp is a real threat and not some kid with a squirt gun painted black..

    Leave a comment:


  • copelandamuffy
    replied
    1. The security guard (Allied Barton) was 73, not 83.

    I believe if this took place in Massachusetts, there could an additonal
    charge of attack on an elderly person

    This piece of garbage who attacked this Guard should be sent away
    for 30 years and put in a cell with a guy named Bubba.
    I think you know where I am going with this

    Leave a comment:


  • Lawson
    replied
    Like I said, you guys do what works for you, I will do what has been working for me.

    Firearms use, retention, training, and everything related does not fall into some big universal "This is what you always do" book. There are different modes of operation for different situations. It is indeed my personal choice to not carry a round-in-chamber while I carry as an S/O openly. It is a personal choice that I feel much more comfortable with at this time. I apologize if you cannot understand why, but as I have stated, none of you have worked my post with my granted equipment. I am not saying my way is better than carrying a chambered round, what I am saying is with my experience on that particular post, I feel it is more fitting for me to carry without the round rather than having it.

    As I said, all I am provided currently is a zilch retention holster. I can run with it and go horizontal with it, but no promises on it retaining the weapon should I so much as fall down. It's just all I have to use right now and I am more comfortable not keeping the round in the chamber.

    Im not trying to play "super-bad-ass ninja" here. I know my job and I know it well. Im not trying to say all my training and experience is better than anyone elses, or I have the most firearms experience in the world. What I am saying is that in my post with my granted equipment it is more likely that someone will try to take my gun and use it on me than should I have to actually draw down and immediately fire on a threat. Things will change when I can get a retention holster, but as of right now... I cannot.

    Leave a comment:

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