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  • #16
    Originally posted by BHR Lawson View Post
    When I work armed plainclothed security, I do not chamber around as my holster has no retention other than gravity and a little bit of pressure from the holster against the gun. Anyone could easily grab the gun out of that holster.
    I assume you carry concealed during these jobs, right? No one should be grabbing anything out of your holster in that case. The time it takes for you to draw and chamber a round to meet a lethal threat already puts you behind and playing "catch up" with the bad guy.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by LPGuy View Post
      If you are working armed, you should be carrying in at least a level II retention holster, and your pistol should have a round chambered. There's a reason that in serious pistol training (such as in the police academy), you are trained to shoot scenarios such as drawing and firing 5 rounds center mass in 3 seconds. The time in takes for you to draw and chamber a round could equal your life. Finally, if you do not have the ability or strength to defend against your pistol being taken away from you... you shouldn't be carrying it.

      Accidental discharges will never occur if you follow the universal firearm safety rules, to include keeping your finger indexed until you are on target and ready to shoot.
      VERY well said LPGuy. In the days when I worked armed security, I would NEVER have imagined carrying a weapon in an unsecure holster, let alone without a round in the chamber. And I never went to work without a vest either. Call me crazy, but "dead" isn't on my daily "to-do" list.
      If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.
      George S. Patton


      www.fedtia.com

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      • #18
        Carried a revolver in a level 3 (075) holster. For CCW, level 2 or above.
        Some Kind of Commando Leader

        "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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        • #19
          Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
          Defending the weapon doesn't enter into the mind of the branch or account manager. Most of them are salesman, not security or police officers, and don't think about things like that.
          It would seem to be a matter common sense if you issue a firearm, that there maybe someone out there with a thought of taking it from the owner/wearer. But, like you said they are salesmem with a lot of education, but absolutely no street smarts whatsoever.

          Be safe,

          Hank
          " We are determined that before the sun sets on this terrible struggle, our flag will be recognized throughout the world as a symbol of freedom on one hand and of overwhelming force on the other" - General George C. Marshall

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          • #20
            Originally posted by LPGuy View Post
            I assume you carry concealed during these jobs, right? No one should be grabbing anything out of your holster in that case. The time it takes for you to draw and chamber a round to meet a lethal threat already puts you behind and playing "catch up" with the bad guy.
            Sometimes yes, sometimes no as far as concealing goes... it all depends on my situation. As far as drawing, with enough training, you can train yourself to draw and rack faster than most people can draw. It does take a lot of dryfire training, but it is doable, trust me.
            "Alright guys listen up, ya'll have probably heard this before, Jackson vs. Securiplex corporation; I am a private security officer, I have no State or governmental authority. I stand as an ordinary citizen. I have no right to; detain, interrogate or otherwise interfere with your personal property-... basically all that means is I'm a cop."-Officer Ernie
            "The Curve" 1998

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            • #21
              Originally posted by BHR Lawson View Post
              Sometimes yes, sometimes no as far as concealing goes... it all depends on my situation. As far as drawing, with enough training, you can train yourself to draw and rack faster than most people can draw. It does take a lot of dryfire training, but it is doable, trust me.
              Ummmmm... nevermind
              "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by BHR Lawson View Post
                As far as drawing, with enough training, you can train yourself to draw and rack faster than most people can draw. It does take a lot of dryfire training, but it is doable, trust me.
                No. No, no, no, and no. That may work if you're squaring off in the OK Corral. However, when we talk about realistic scenarios and someone has a weapon pointed at you, that doesn't and will never work. Your OODA Loop reaction will not be faster than the suspect's action. A highly trained individual's reaction time is 1.5 seconds. That's 1.5 seconds to both observe and orient yourself to a threat, decide and then act. Add the extra motions of drawing from a concealed holster and racking the slide. Now you're dead, because the suspect already had his weapon out and put 5 rounds into you.

                Really, no offense, but these are the thoughts that result from a lack of serious training. I challenge you to find any school of firearms training that teaches drawing and chambering before putting your weapon on target. Any professional firearms instructor out there will tell you that the key to winning a gunfight is to be the first one on target and putting accurate rounds into someone. Anything that obstructs your draw (gear around your pistol, for example) or extra hand motions need to be eliminated.

                I challenge you to re-think your justification for not carrying with a round chambered. You stated that because of a lack of retention, that anyone could access your pistol. If you were to ever become disarmed, you're therefore hoping that 1) They won't know how to chamber a round themself, and/or 2) You'll disarm them before they can chamber a round and kill you. If number two is true, and you couldn't retain your pistol in the first place, what makes you think you'll disarm the individual who has taken your pistol from you to begin with?

                Your gear needs to be ready to be deployed at a moment's notice, because if you ever need to engage in lethal force, it may need to be immediate.

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                • #23
                  I forget the school, but one of the Israeli Defense Schools specifically teaches the draw and rack method. A gun grabber isnt going to grab your gun and rack it. They will pull the trigger 3-4 times and wonder why the gun isn't firing.

                  It was not too long ago an officer had a gun taken from them, and the only thing that kept them from being shot is the fact that there was no chambered round.

                  We can argue this around the table all day on what works best. However... what works best is what you are comfortable with. When you try to do something you aren't comfortable with just because someone else thinks, "That's the wrong way" ... that is when you get yourself into situations you can't get yourself out of. I have been doing this for a while, it's not a "lack of training" or a "lack of knowledge" it is me finding a particular "groove" to match my surroundings, match my abilities, and to match the task at hand. You do not have my post, you do not have the same training as I do, you do not have the same experience as I do, and equally I do not have yours. I have found a technique that works best for what I do, and I am not going to change it because someone who doesnt know how I operate thinks its just a general bad idea.
                  "Alright guys listen up, ya'll have probably heard this before, Jackson vs. Securiplex corporation; I am a private security officer, I have no State or governmental authority. I stand as an ordinary citizen. I have no right to; detain, interrogate or otherwise interfere with your personal property-... basically all that means is I'm a cop."-Officer Ernie
                  "The Curve" 1998

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by BHR Lawson View Post
                    It was not too long ago an officer had a gun taken from them, and the only thing that kept them from being shot is the fact that there was no chambered round.
                    I don't know of this specific case, but I can only help but wonder if the officer had exercised universal officer safety concepts in the first place. Guns don't exactly just fly off our hips and into bad guy's hands unless we present them with a good opportunity to take them in the first place. Practicing proper safety concepts generally prevents that from occuring.

                    Point is, you're practicing to a standard of reacting to the bad guy. "I won't chamber a round, so in case my gun gets taken, I won't get shot right away." Instead, professionals are trained to practice to a higher standard of keeping a round chambered so that deadly force can be dealt to a suspect before they can become a more serious threat.

                    Have you trained yourself to draw, chamber a round, and fire one-handed individually with both your strong and weak arms? If you become pinned in a fight and can only draw with one hand, or your weak arm is immobilized, good luck quickly drawing and racking that slide one-handed.

                    In the end, you'll do what works for you. Keep in mind that "what works" is not necessarily "what's best," either, as bad habits can be formed from repetitions. I'm not making this stuff up, as it is standard firearms and officer safety training. It's a proven fact that the longer your reaction takes, the less chance you have of beating an action, no matter how many times you've practiced drawing and racking a slide.

                    Please don't take my criticism as insults. I'm just trying to provide you with further insight. I apologize if I've hijacked the thread as well...

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by LPGuy View Post
                      Have you trained yourself to draw, chamber a round, and fire one-handed individually with both your strong and weak arms? If you become pinned in a fight and can only draw with one hand, or your weak arm is immobilized, good luck quickly drawing and racking that slide one-handed.
                      What I do, is train on racking the firearm in various ways. You can rack on a belt, your knee, anything sitting around you, etc... When I shoot-to-train, out of 500 rds, a good 150 or so go into using my weak hand in the event I cannot use my strong hand.

                      I train how I fight, and what I do I have found to work best for me. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but on the reverse I see officers who still willingly carry the revolvers which is not my cup of tea.

                      I feel it shouldn't be gauged on "What works" or "What is best," it should be gauged on what is best for the individual.
                      "Alright guys listen up, ya'll have probably heard this before, Jackson vs. Securiplex corporation; I am a private security officer, I have no State or governmental authority. I stand as an ordinary citizen. I have no right to; detain, interrogate or otherwise interfere with your personal property-... basically all that means is I'm a cop."-Officer Ernie
                      "The Curve" 1998

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by BHR Lawson View Post
                        I train how I fight....
                        That's a good training philosophy!

                        One factor to consider is whether you carry different weapons with different actions (SAO vs DAO vs DA/SA etc) at different times, as I do. In a sudden confrontation, you could easily get mixed up as to your "carry configuration" and other things (exact safety location, mag release, etc.). To minimize these issues, and because I rate fire-readiness over gun-retention as the controlling issue, I would never use a carry configuration that required me to rack and fire.

                        In other words, I would not let possible takeaways govern the decision regarding the carry configuration. You carry the weapon, presumably, to draw and fire it. Hopefully, we are teaching retention, and also considering retention when we select holsters. In other words, there are other ways and means for dealing with retention issues than letting that dictate how you configure your weapon.
                        Last edited by SecTrainer; 08-25-2007, 11:58 AM.
                        "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                        "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                        "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                        "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

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                        • #27
                          When I am able to get a more higher retention holster, I can change my outlook on how I carry; however; that is not financially feasible at this time.
                          "Alright guys listen up, ya'll have probably heard this before, Jackson vs. Securiplex corporation; I am a private security officer, I have no State or governmental authority. I stand as an ordinary citizen. I have no right to; detain, interrogate or otherwise interfere with your personal property-... basically all that means is I'm a cop."-Officer Ernie
                          "The Curve" 1998

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            WHAT THE HELL!?!? I can not believe that we are having this discussion with NON-Super Ninjas. All of us are supposed to be good (if not great) at our jobs, we are not newbies C'mon now...

                            The practice of carrying a REVOLVER with an empty chamber goes back to the days of old-the Old West. Firearms then did not have the safeties the prevent the gun from being fired if dropped, or the hammer being hit hard enough. The early practice of carrying a semi auto pistol with an empty chamber are just were a carry over from that era.

                            That being said, this practice being carried out in today's times and with modern firearms is a recipe for disaster!

                            Never carry your weapon with an empty chamber, unless you want to loose. I mean, hell, it's only your life on the line, oh and maybe your partner's. oh and maybe someone else's...

                            I am astonished that any rangemaster has allowed this practice.
                            ~Super Ninja Sniper~
                            Corbier's Commandos

                            Nemo me impune lacessit

                            Grammical and Spelling errors may occur form time to time. Yoov bin worned

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by ValleyOne View Post
                              I am astonished that any rangemaster has allowed this practice.
                              No serious rangemaster would. This is a personal choice made by BHR Lawson.

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                              • #30
                                Like I said, you guys do what works for you, I will do what has been working for me.

                                Firearms use, retention, training, and everything related does not fall into some big universal "This is what you always do" book. There are different modes of operation for different situations. It is indeed my personal choice to not carry a round-in-chamber while I carry as an S/O openly. It is a personal choice that I feel much more comfortable with at this time. I apologize if you cannot understand why, but as I have stated, none of you have worked my post with my granted equipment. I am not saying my way is better than carrying a chambered round, what I am saying is with my experience on that particular post, I feel it is more fitting for me to carry without the round rather than having it.

                                As I said, all I am provided currently is a zilch retention holster. I can run with it and go horizontal with it, but no promises on it retaining the weapon should I so much as fall down. It's just all I have to use right now and I am more comfortable not keeping the round in the chamber.

                                Im not trying to play "super-bad-ass ninja" here. I know my job and I know it well. Im not trying to say all my training and experience is better than anyone elses, or I have the most firearms experience in the world. What I am saying is that in my post with my granted equipment it is more likely that someone will try to take my gun and use it on me than should I have to actually draw down and immediately fire on a threat. Things will change when I can get a retention holster, but as of right now... I cannot.
                                "Alright guys listen up, ya'll have probably heard this before, Jackson vs. Securiplex corporation; I am a private security officer, I have no State or governmental authority. I stand as an ordinary citizen. I have no right to; detain, interrogate or otherwise interfere with your personal property-... basically all that means is I'm a cop."-Officer Ernie
                                "The Curve" 1998

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