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Transit Security Guard Murdered in Brooklyn

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  • Transit Security Guard Murdered in Brooklyn

    http://www.nysun.com/article/50257
    Its not how we die that counts.....
    Its not how we lived that counts....
    all that matters is how we saved that one life that one time by being in the right place at the right time....

  • #2
    Did you ever notice how when a cop is killed they will often run his photo and have a lot about his bio, sometimes even in a lengthy "sidebar", but you hardly ever see either one of those things when a security officer gets killed? We don't seem to merit "wasting" the column space, I guess - just another blip on the radar screen. You also don't usually see very many followup stories about the murder investigation of a security officer like you do with cops, or top-of-the-news coverage of the security officer's funeral. There are exceptions, of course, but that's been my general observation.

    How often have stories about 9/11 given any information about the security officers who were killed that day? Well, you'll find thousands of stories about police, fire and ambulance victims while the true first responders were the on-site security staff, many of whom stood their ground and helped people to safety before the public responders had set foot out of their vehicles. Few memorials or honors have been given to them, though!

    We, at least, must never forget them nor any of our other brothers and sisters who - often completely unarmed, ill-equipped, poorly trained and underpaid - brave the night and confront danger so that others might sleep unmolested in their beds.
    Last edited by SecTrainer; 03-12-2007, 11:30 PM.
    "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

    "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

    "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

    "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by SecTrainer
      We, at least, must never forget them nor any of our other brothers and sisters who - often completely unarmed, ill-equipped, poorly trained and underpaid - brave the night and confront danger so that others might sleep unmolested in their beds.
      Well worth repeating, thank you.
      Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted.
      Groucho Marx

      Comment


      • #4
        The reasoning behind this is that Police Officers, firefighters, and EMT personnel work for the general public while the majority of Security Guards work for private entities.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Investigation
          The reasoning behind this is that Police Officers, firefighters, and EMT personnel work for the general public while the majority of Security Guards work for private entities.
          Its not even this. Security Guards are a good headline when they do something wrong, even if they were a security guard in the 1960s. (Seriously, AP ran a story with a headline "Security Guard murders..." The man was a guard in the 1960s, not presently...)

          Its simply that police officers dying are newsworthy. People "like to read" about police officers dying. They want to know about it, because it has the elements of crime, personal sacrifice, etc.

          Whereas, a security guard is just "joe blow," and no one wants to read about that. Its the same question, "Why don't pizza drivers make the front page with a sidebar?" Because no one cares about the pizza driver. They care about THE POLICE. The police are an institution.
          Some Kind of Commando Leader

          "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
            Its not even this. Security Guards are a good headline when they do something wrong, even if they were a security guard in the 1960s. (Seriously, AP ran a story with a headline "Security Guard murders..." The man was a guard in the 1960s, not presently...)

            Its simply that police officers dying are newsworthy. People "like to read" about police officers dying. They want to know about it, because it has the elements of crime, personal sacrifice, etc.

            Whereas, a security guard is just "joe blow," and no one wants to read about that. Its the same question, "Why don't pizza drivers make the front page with a sidebar?" Because no one cares about the pizza driver. They care about THE POLICE. The police are an institution.
            Same difference. The public cares about a security guard getting hurt about the same as a Wal-mart employee getting a splinter while moving a display (if not less). But, again, I kind of feel the same way even though I’ve worked in the industry for over 10 years. If I had a choice who I wanted to respond to my house for a burglar, it would be the police. Most people probably feel the same way and that’s why when one gets hurt, the public reacts. The police are the public’s protection. Security guards have a narrow focus while public law enforcement takes on a broader role that affects a larger amount of people.

            Don’t get me wrong. I do care if someone from our profession gets injured, but I care about them as I would any other private citizen.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Investigation
              Same difference. The public cares about a security guard getting hurt about the same as a Wal-mart employee getting a splinter while moving a display (if not less). But, again, I kind of feel the same way even though I’ve worked in the industry for over 10 years. If I had a choice who I wanted to respond to my house for a burglar, it would be the police. Most people probably feel the same way and that’s why when one gets hurt, the public reacts. The police are the public’s protection. Security guards have a narrow focus while public law enforcement takes on a broader role that affects a larger amount of people.

              Don’t get me wrong. I do care if someone from our profession gets injured, but I care about them as I would any other private citizen.
              On a side note, that is kind of like the reasoning behind why there are Campus Police. Back in the day (or today if the campus dosen't have police), people would say "security is coming" and the offender wouldn't blink. Now they say "the police are coming" and the offender is likely to bounce right on out of there. Hell, we're still "security" for the campus, but people respond better to the word police.

              Like you said, give people a choice of who comes to help them (police or security), they'd pick police. It is a crying shame that S/Os aren't more respected, but given the general state of S/Os in this country, it's not suprising. Wal-Mart pays more than many of the S/O jobs in this country...

              My condolences to the family of the Slain Officer.
              ~Black Caesar~
              Corbier's Commandos

              " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

              Comment


              • #8
                Realistically a cop gets way more access to the public then S/O do. For the most part we work for low wages at night ,out of sight. When you have a problem and call 911 who shows up a cop or security guy?

                Who walks down the street and pats little Johnny on the head and says good boy. Are you going to be a police man when you grow up? Who drives the shinny cruiser with the flashing lights and siren going? Who does Norman Rockwell paint sitting at a dinner surrounded by the all American family? Hint it's not an S/O. I think you get the idea by now.

                A family friend went down off the SC coast on a Texaco oil freighter. On the 3rd page of the local news paper was a 2 inch piece about it. He went from a good human being to a one of 20 no name crewmen that went down on the ship. Had he been a sailor on a destroyer it would have taken the front page with a full biography. That's just how it works. Always has always will.
                THE AVERAGE RESPONSE TIME FOR A 911 CALL IS FOUR MINUTES
                THE AVERAGE RESPONSE TIME FOR A .357 MAGNUM ROUND IS 1400 FEET PER SECOND?
                http://www.boondocksaints.com/

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Investigation
                  The reasoning behind this is that Police Officers, firefighters, and EMT personnel work for the general public while the majority of Security Guards work for private entities.
                  Well, it's mighty poor reasoning. Most people will encounter some form of security almost every time they venture out in "public"....whether at work, a mall, a school, a government building, a sports arena, a hospital, and in many other settings. However, those same people (these members of "the general public") might not even see a policeman the whole day, or at most they might see a cop car cruising down the road (en route to take a report) or hiding behind a tree with a radar gun (Yoo-hoo...I see you!).

                  Because it is the responsibility of many private entities to protect "the general public" who come within their boundaries, security officers do, in fact, work for "the general public" in those venues. The distinction isn't whether security works for the "general public". The real distinction is that police are paid by government entities while security officers happen to be paid by private entities.

                  In my view, there is no LOGICAL reason why the public should care more or be more interested in the death of a cop than they are in the death of a security officer. In many cases, it was really that deceased security officer who was the one who actually kept them safe as they went about their business in the "public" (quasi-public) spaces, in which most people actually spend most of their time...and not the cops.

                  It was when I really came to terms with this cold reality as a cop and realized how little I was really protecting anyone, compared to reacting to things that already had happened, that I left LE. Not only was LE totally boring (I got no kick out of the siren and lights), but I got tired of forever riding around, taking reports and apologizing when people would ask "Where were you guys?" while they mopped up the blood or swept up the glass from the broken window. Like all LE agencies, we also had a depressingly low clearance rate even after the fact. The railroad police did better than we did, for Christ sake.

                  Even so-called "community policing" didn't change anything - it just meant that there were more avenues by which a million special interest groups could argue about what they thought the police should be doing. It was good for getting grants, of course...after all, it was the latest BUZZ!

                  By contrast, the security domain is one in which you do have at least a very real shot at preventing some things before they go down. Yes, it can be just as boring as LE, certainly. And yes, you'll still sometimes hear the question "Where were you guys"? But the difference in terms of being able to influence the situation preventively instead of just reacting to things is enormous.

                  The "general public" should be very, very interested and concerned when anyone in the major protective domain of society - which is so-called "private" security - is killed in the line of duty. They've just lost one of the people who really do keep them safe.

                  Incidentally, we ought to lose the term "private" security as it merely creates the wrong idea. Most "private" security is, in fact, "public" security for the reasons I've stated above. When you see a security officer in the mall, at the university, hospital, etc., you're looking at a public security officer, who is responsible for the safety of every member of the public who passes within his area of responsibility, not just some of them. Just because they happen to be on that campus does not make anyone any less a member of "the public" than they are out on the street...and the law supports my position on this. Try arbitrarily refusing to provide security services in these quasi-public spaces to any member of the public just one time, and you'll learn what I mean. Regardless of who is paying you, you're obliged to protect, to the best of your ability, every member of the public who enters that space and even your private employer cannot pick and choose who that will be. If your space is open to the public, you're a public security officer and we ought to care deeply when our public security officers are killed - the public has lost something.
                  Last edited by SecTrainer; 03-15-2007, 04:45 PM.
                  "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                  "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                  "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                  "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by SecTrainer

                    In my view, there is no LOGICAL reason why the public should care more or be more interested in the death of a cop than they are in the death of a security officer. In many cases, it was really that deceased security officer who was the one who actually kept them safe as they went about their business in the "public" (quasi-public) spaces, in which most people actually spend most of their time...and not the cops.
                    I’m sorry you didn’t enjoy your stint in LE as I did, but the fact of the matter is that the majority of Security Guards are trained to observe and report activities to the police and NOT intervene. This is probably best considering that the majority of security personnel are not trained to the caliber of police. So, how are they protecting your car if it's getting broken into? How are they protecting you if you get assaulted? They are going to call the locals and then it's report writing for everyone! Sure, they can observe the suspect, but anyone on the street can do that. You are trying to glorify the industry as a whole! I believe that there are many highly trained professionals in the Security Industry who do a valuable service in protecting persons and property, but they are outweighed by the rent-a-cops that are placed on a job site with little training. You can try to dissect it any way you want, but the fact of the matter is that there are many other professions requiring more training than Security Guards that would receive even less respect in similar circumstances.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Investigation
                      I’m sorry you didn’t enjoy your stint in LE as I did, but the fact of the matter is that the majority of Security Guards are trained to observe and report activities to the police and NOT intervene. This is probably best considering that the majority of security personnel are not trained to the caliber of police. So, how are they protecting your car if it's getting broken into? How are they protecting you if you get assaulted? They are going to call the locals and then it's report writing for everyone! Sure, they can observe the suspect, but anyone on the street can do that. You are trying to glorify the industry as a whole! I believe that there are many highly trained professionals in the Security Industry who do a valuable service in protecting persons and property, but they are outweighed by the rent-a-cops that are placed on a job site with little training. You can try to dissect it any way you want, but the fact of the matter is that there are many other professions requiring more training than Security Guards that would receive even less respect in similar circumstances.
                      Oh, I enjoyed some of it, don't get me wrong. I just wasn't protecting anybody very much of the time and the realization of that (as I took my 392nd burglary report) made me realize that I was getting paid for something we weren't doing very well.

                      Your questions cause me to think you're missing the whole point of security in the first place, if you'll pardon my saying so.

                      Have you ever wondered how "observe and report" can be called "security" in the first place? I mean, at a superficial level it seems so ineffective. "Observe and report"...How can we even call something like that "security" at all?

                      Well, at least half the value of "observe and report" is not the officer observing the perp, but the perp observing the officer, who he sees is observing him!! In other words, with good "observation and reporting", that car break-in you ask about doesn't even require "intervention" because it doesn't happen.

                      Security is about PREVENTION more than INTERVENTION. Overwhelming evidence has shown that the vast majority of crime IS prevented by VISIBLE GUARDIANSHIP. You place security officers around at strategic locations, and you have them patrol, so that potential perps will see them proactively guarding their area and go somewhere else. You make cameras visible to perps so they will see them and go somewhere else. You put signs on property warning about a security presence so that perps will see them and go somewhere else.

                      So, if the security operation - even one restricted to "observe and report" is effective, the relative minority of perps who decide to commit the crime anyway will be a very bad one whether it's the police or the security force who actually "intervene" and make an arrest...what difference does it make? Security has done its job either way.

                      You say I'm "glorifying" the industry as a whole, but then you would seem to go the other way - trashing the industry by your "rent-a-cop" characterization of security officers, wouldn't you agree? I'm an ardent proponent of more training, but the fact is that prevention always does require less training than intervention because there is no incident to handle when prevention is successful and nothing happens! Since prevention can never be perfect, however, I do argue that officers should be better trained to intervene, but that's a different subject.

                      Academy or not, training doesn't make anyone a good cop, and it never has. Similarly, a lack of formal training does not mean a man is necessarily a bad officer. Throughout history there have been damned fine cops who never had even as much training as the average security officer receives today. The name "Pinkerton" might be familiar to you - a man with a very interesting history who became the equivalent of the nation's first Secret Service officer, and an intelligence officer to boot. I suppose you'd not mind knowing that Pinkerton was the officer sitting in your guard shack, eh? Or would he be disqualified and called a "rent-a-cop" due to his "lack of training"?

                      Training is a good thing. However, we shouldn't be too snobbish about who has what training and we certainly shouldn't draw any straight lines between "hours of training" and crime-prevention value. If such a relationship existed, given the training that cops get now the crime rate in America should be somewhere close to zero and we have a very hard time explaining why the crime rate rocketed during the 1990s at the very same time we were doubling and tripling the hours in POST academies. The crime rate has dropped or stabilized somewhat in recent years, but it's highly likely that this is due to the aging of the American population and enormous increase in the incarcerated population more than any true preventive actions by the police who are still pretty much doing the same things they've always done...riding around, writing traffic tickets and taking crime reports. The real improvements in police work have mostly been in the "reactive" areas like the forensic sciences and what proactive measures the police do manage to take looks (surprise!) very much like so-called "private security", including even "observe and report".
                      Last edited by SecTrainer; 03-15-2007, 06:20 PM.
                      "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                      "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                      "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                      "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        All I want to know is: what is it with you SecTrainer, why this big chip on your shoulder about police. The Death of this Transit S/O had nothing to do with police at all, but you introduce the topic (in rather whining fashion). Everyone else understands why people pay more attention to public police rather than private security.

                        In the very next thread (about the S/O who died after calling 911) you said "
                        I wonder what the response time was. Unfortunately, these calls usually aren't treated with the same urgency as when a cop calls for backup...but they probably should be".

                        The article says nothing about response time, it does mention the 3 or 4 LE agencies are working the case of this S/Os death.

                        But anyways, did you have a bad experience as a cop or something, because you rarely have anything good to say about police.

                        Oh, and the part about LE not protecting anything... There are about 55,000 College, university, school, hospital, airport, transit, railroad and Court police officer who would disagree with you....
                        ~Black Caesar~
                        Corbier's Commandos

                        " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hey, BC - nice to hear from you again. You just don't read very well, do you? By that, I don't just mean my posts...I just mean LE and security literature generally.

                          I'd be happy to provide you with sufficient references so that, if you read them, you'll finally realize that these are not merely my observations, but those of others including many whose reputations are such that you would be unable to respond to them in your weak fashion by means of insults, speculations and other nonresponsive garbage as in your post above.

                          We might start with the elements of proper argumentation, which will teach you that it doesn't matter in the slightest what 55,000 anythings, or a million anyones, "have to say". What matters is what can be objectively proven and there, my friend, I'm afraid you're at a disadvantage. PM me if you'd like to learn but would prefer, perhaps, not to "go to school" in public.

                          I will, however, clarify that I was referring, by "LE", to municipal and county agencies. Some of those that you specifically mention - despite the word "police" in some of their names - actually work on the "private security" model more than they do on police models. They can do so because they are responsible for very limited jurisdictions (and in fact, I mentioned in one of my posts that the "railroad police" were more successful than we in LE - meaning the municipal/county police - were...evidence again of the value of actually reading my posts). As such, these organizations which are able to operate under the security rather than the police model and do enjoy some "prevention" success by virtue of that fact are actually arguments for my position rather than against it.
                          Last edited by SecTrainer; 03-15-2007, 06:49 PM.
                          "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                          "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                          "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                          "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SecTrainer
                            Hey, BC - nice to hear from you again. You just don't read very well, do you? By that, I don't just mean my posts...I just mean LE and security literature generally.

                            I'd be happy to provide you with sufficient references so that, if you read them, you'll finally realize that these are not merely my observations, but those of others including many whose reputations are such that you would be unable to respond to them in your weak fashion by means of insults, speculations and other nonresponsive garbage as in your post above.
                            Non-responsive garbage. Lol, that's so funny.

                            Let's get this straight, I'm not the one who decided to make this S/O's tragic death yet another anti-police/jealousy of police Jihad. That was you.

                            We might start with the elements of proper argumentation, which will teach you that it doesn't matter in the slightest what 55,000 anythings, or a million anyones, "have to say". What matters is what can be objectively proven and there, my friend, I'm afraid you're at a disadvantage. PM me if you'd like to learn but would prefer, perhaps, not to "go to school" in public.
                            So, basically what your saying is all the different special policemen I listed, myself included, don't really protect anything, but if we changed our names back to security, everything would be ok?

                            Yea, that makes total sense.

                            Look, whatever issues you have are fine, but we have a saying here in Texas: "Don't start none, won't be none". If you can't take the heat about your (very odd and obviously outdated) opinions, you shouldn't offer them on a forum that's open to the public.
                            ~Black Caesar~
                            Corbier's Commandos

                            " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Yes, but you didn't answer. Would you like to learn or shall we limit this to a good ol' boy Texas folk-wisdom down-on-the-ranch "homey sayings" duel at 20 paces? I have a spittoon around here somewhere....I mean somewheres.

                              I know I'll have to spit reel straight, podnuh, because sooner or later someone from Texas claims to have said just about everything, don't they?

                              Well, here's my first shot: "When you're in a hole, stop diggin'".
                              Last edited by SecTrainer; 03-15-2007, 06:58 PM.
                              "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                              "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                              "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                              "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

                              Comment

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