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  • Security guard stabbed during shoplifting scuffle

    http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.d...NEWS/612170326



    i guess our job can be dangerous if you want to be proactive.. in this case the people were outside would you have just "observed and reported" or decide to be proactive and try to "fight" ?
    Its not how we die that counts.....
    Its not how we lived that counts....
    all that matters is how we saved that one life that one time by being in the right place at the right time....

  • #2
    Are you asking, "Would you of tried to stop the men from stealing the tools," or are you asking, "There's a fight going on, and someone's losing. Would you observe and report, or help?"
    Some Kind of Commando Leader

    "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
      Are you asking, "Would you of tried to stop the men from stealing the tools," or are you asking, "There's a fight going on, and someone's losing. Would you observe and report, or help?"
      i would be asking both
      Its not how we die that counts.....
      Its not how we lived that counts....
      all that matters is how we saved that one life that one time by being in the right place at the right time....

      Comment


      • #4
        The first depends on your post orders, mission, state laws, and your level of training. There are many people who's sole job is to call 911 and leave the area. That's all they do.

        Others are expected to confront them. It can either be hard, or soft. But going near them IS confrontation. You are a uniformed authority figure contacting them.
        Some Kind of Commando Leader

        "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

        Comment


        • #5
          My first reaction to this is was the security officer prperly equiped to intervene? As we all know, taking on a knife without any defense tools is not a very good response. Next, as has been said, what are the post orders regarding this situation. One does not need to be a self proclaimed superhero to do the job correctly. If your client expects you to intervene, do so but only if you have the tools to make a proper detention and only if it is relitively safe for you to do so ( i.e. sufficient number of officers and proper training).
          Murphy was an optomist.

          Comment


          • #6
            I don't know how K-Marts are run in the southwest, but the K-Marts that I'm familiar with use plainclothes loss prevention officers who make apprehensions. I've been in similiar situations myself when I worked LP, where I was the sole officer on duty and I was preparing to stop a group of suspects. I would usually grab a few employees to assist in case they tried to fight.

            Usually the knife isn't displayed until you've tried to make the apprehension. At that point, you do what you have to do to get him in custody and protect yourself.

            Comment


            • #7
              Taylorsville and Sugarhouse......

              I remember not too long ago (around Christmas, I believe), a shoplifter got in the backseat of the getaway car, and the LP chased him out, stuck his hands in the window, and was dragged across the parking lot for a couple hundred feet. This particular incident was at a Shopko in Taylorsville, UT. There was also a LP detective stabbed at the Shopko in Sugarhouse (myself and UPF both work for the same company in the Northern area of Utah). I used to work contract security at the same property the Sugarhouse complex is, and assisted with the detective that was stabbed 2 yr prior to the stabbing incident. I have since changed companies several times.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by UtahProtectionForce
                http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.d...NEWS/612170326



                i guess our job can be dangerous if you want to be proactive.. in this case the people were outside would you have just "observed and reported" or decide to be proactive and try to "fight" ?
                Being "proactive" does not mean fighting with suspected theives in a KMART parking lot. That action is reactive. Proactive is using means to deter the theft before it happens. There is nothing in a KMART store worth risking your or others lives for.

                At the end of the article it talks about a LP person who was reaching in a car window to try and stop a shoplifter and was dragged by a car. I have terminated loss prevention staff for doing this.

                In answer to your question - observe and report.
                Retail Security Consultant / Expert Witness
                Co-Author - Effective Security Management 6th Edition

                Contributor to Retail Crime, Security and Loss Prevention: An Encyclopedic Reference

                Comment


                • #9
                  Had security been armed, two rounds center mass would have been an appropriate response.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Hospital Security Dude
                    Had security been armed, two rounds center mass would have been an appropriate response.
                    Yes dude I will share a donut anytime with you. Blazer wearers just don't get it.
                    Deadly force begets Deadly response.
                    THE AVERAGE RESPONSE TIME FOR A 911 CALL IS FOUR MINUTES
                    THE AVERAGE RESPONSE TIME FOR A .357 MAGNUM ROUND IS 1400 FEET PER SECOND?
                    http://www.boondocksaints.com/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Chucky
                      Yes dude I will share a donut anytime with you. Blazer wearers just don't get it.
                      Deadly force begets Deadly response.
                      every...freaking...time lol.

                      I agree whole-heartedly with what Security Consultant said of course. I think there is a time and place for everything. If the employer isn't going to give me the proper tools to do a job, I'll do the job the equip me to do. If I'm unarmed it's observe and report city for me.
                      ~Black Caesar~
                      Corbier's Commandos

                      " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        This is why I`d never work unarmed. I gotta have my SIG next to me

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Security Consultant
                          There is nothing in a KMART store worth risking your or others lives for.
                          This is the basic LP mantra, and one of the chief excuses for the nearly universal failure to provide armed officers in retail establishments - even in many that have a history of armed incidents. Unfortunately, the mantra is wrong. There are actually lots of things in a KMART store that might justify an armed protective response - I'm sure you must have noticed them. They're called PEOPLE, and the retail industry frankly has a deplorable history of being indifferent to the protection of these valuable "items" in their stores. You only have to look at the statistics regarding violent crimes against retail employees and customers, for instance, to witness the results of this indifference.

                          It's time - no, it's way past time - for the retail industry to understand once and for all that their security obligations extend far beyond the question of whether their "stuff" gets boosted or whether an employee gives out free french fries to her friends.

                          Every day of the week, retail stores contain millions of the most precious "things" in the world - PEOPLE. More than the "right" to find a desirable selection of merchandise at half-off (which is the retailer's Bill of Rights and religious creed all rolled into one) these people have the more fundamental right to be safe (in which right, however, the retailer does not believe or care about for one minute). Let the customer beware, and it's no skin off our nose if she drives around for a half-hour in order to get a parking spot close to the store!

                          Think about this: If these millions of people passing through their doors were each a shipment of diamonds instead, you can bet there would be armed officers, and a threat to those diamonds WOULD provoke an armed response. But, I guess people just don't matter as much as diamonds to the typical retail executive. Seems perfectly reasonable, doesn't it? I'm not suggesting that KMARTS should become armed camps, but the notion that low-level security is all that is ever justified because "we're only dealing with stuff here" is simply wrong, especially for retail stores where the immediate environment and the history makes it perfectly predictable that there will be violent crimes committed against the people in those stores or in their parking facilities.
                          Last edited by SecTrainer; 02-19-2007, 04:19 AM.
                          "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                          "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                          "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                          "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SecTrainer
                            This is the basic LP mantra, and one of the chief excuses for the nearly universal failure to provide armed officers in retail establishments - even in many that have a history of armed incidents. Unfortunately, the mantra is wrong. There are actually lots of things in a KMART store that might justify an armed protective response - I'm sure you must have noticed them. They're called PEOPLE, and the retail industry frankly has a deplorable history of being indifferent to the protection of these valuable "items" in their stores. You only have to look at the statistics regarding violent crimes against retail employees and customers, for instance, to witness the results of this indifference.

                            It's time - no, it's way past time - for the retail industry to understand once and for all that their security obligations extend far beyond the question of whether their "stuff" gets boosted or whether an employee gives out free french fries to her friends.

                            Every day of the week, retail stores contain millions of the most precious "things" in the world - PEOPLE. More than the "right" to find a desirable selection of merchandise at half-off (which is the retailer's Bill of Rights and religious creed all rolled into one) these people have the more fundamental right to be safe (in which right, however, the retailer does not believe or care about for one minute). Let the customer beware, and it's no skin off our nose if she drives around for a half-hour in order to get a parking spot close to the store!

                            Think about this: If these millions of people passing through their doors were each a shipment of diamonds instead, you can bet there would be armed officers, and a threat to those diamonds WOULD provoke an armed response. But, I guess people just don't matter as much as diamonds to the typical retail executive. Seems perfectly reasonable, doesn't it? I'm not suggesting that KMARTS should become armed camps, but the notion that low-level security is all that is ever justified because "we're only dealing with stuff here" is simply wrong, especially for retail stores where the immediate environment and the history makes it perfectly predictable that there will be violent crimes committed against the people in those stores or in their parking facilities.
                            This thread is titled, "Security Guard stabbed during shoplifting scuffle" Here's my response, Being "proactive" does not mean fighting with suspected theives in a KMART parking lot. That action is reactive. Proactive is using means to deter the theft before it happens. There is nothing in a KMART store worth risking your or others lives for.

                            When approaching a shoplifter outside the store and confronted with a weapon - I stand by my statement. What have they stolen that is worth your life?

                            As to other points in your post - I draw on my experience and that of my peers in the retail loss prevention/security industry. I worked for a retailer that required all of their LP to carry firearms while working in their stores. The customers in the stores never knew it. I have very often hired armed Security Officers and off duty Police Officers to work in stores. This is where the history, crime rate and business needs dictates such an action. I have hired armed personnel for the protection of employees and customers in threatened stores.

                            Retailers recognize their duty to protect their customers. Every P&P manual I have ever written or reviewed has included a section that carefully outlines a response to violence on company premises.

                            You write, "Let the customer beware, and it's no skin off our nose if she drives around for a half-hour in order to get a parking spot close to the store!" And that has what to do with providing an armed security staff for customer safety? That is a customer service issue. It makes sense to provide parking lot assistance to customers when the times dictate.
                            Retail Security Consultant / Expert Witness
                            Co-Author - Effective Security Management 6th Edition

                            Contributor to Retail Crime, Security and Loss Prevention: An Encyclopedic Reference

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Security Consultant
                              You write, "Let the customer beware, and it's no skin off our nose if she drives around for a half-hour in order to get a parking spot close to the store!" And that has what to do with providing an armed security staff for customer safety? That is a customer service issue. It makes sense to provide parking lot assistance to customers when the times dictate.
                              Sorry - I assumed you would understand in the context of this thread that this woman is driving around looking for a nearby parking space for the reason that she's afraid to have to walk very far in the parking lot - not merely as a matter of convenience. In this particular sense, incidentally, you seem to segregate this issue from the security function by calling it a "customer service" issue ("Not my job, man"). However, it's a perfect example of how security people must understand that theirs IS a business and a customer service function.

                              And yes, some retailers have finally recognized that they have a need for higher-level response, but they are so few in number that they don't bear talking about. My comments were directed to the majority of the retail industry, not the exceptions that can always be cited whenever any broad principle or widely-prevailing condition is being discussed. Exceptions never disprove anything.

                              Finally, I'm not talking about what retailers say in their manuals or declare from their rooftops. I'm talking about what they do, and for most of them it stops with making noble proclamations in the manuals.
                              Last edited by SecTrainer; 02-19-2007, 11:24 AM.
                              "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                              "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                              "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                              "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

                              Comment

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