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  • 1stWatch
    replied
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
    I got all that training 1stWatch mentioned from the Florida "D" School course. It was extremely, extremely, extremely lacking in depth and teached the Florida Security Officer just enough to get him into trouble...
    ...Florida could do more indepth training, and allows schools to do so as long as they teach the required criteria, but the large security companies will not send their people to schools that teach more. Liability due to excessive training...
    ...Yes, they actually have to disclaimer the personal decision to perform CPR and first aid by stating that your company may prohibit you from doing these things on duty or in their uniform.
    See, this is another example of what I was referring to. A face of training is provided for security, but it is so mediocre it's just a joke.
    Liability due to excessive training? What kind of case law has there ever been to support that? Or is it just prejudice implemented by security companies that only support imbeciles?
    That kind of thing could be nipped in the bud if the state would care enough about the issue and mandated all training and licensing of any sort be given by the d.p.s. or state police and what they say goes, for example if Florida says first aid is required then licensed companies may not retaliate against an employee for receiving such required training. Take the control of that out of the hands of unethical employers.

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  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    I got all that training 1stWatch mentioned from the Florida "D" School course. It was extremely, extremely, extremely lacking in depth and teached the Florida Security Officer just enough to get him into trouble.

    OSHA HAZMAT: This is the fire diamond. This is Blood Borne Pathogens. DO NOT TOUCH. CALL 911.

    Crime Scene Protection: Identify a crime scene. Call the police. Ask people not to go near it. Get yelled at by police if they do. You are not a law enforcement officer and you may not prevent them from doing so.

    Report Writing: Who, What, Where, How, and Why? Learn to spell! Learn proper grammar. Write in black ink. Do not use acronyms like SO, S/O, POC, ETA, etc. Write in the third person.

    Dangerous Weapons: People will attack you with batons, knives, handguns, OC spray, flashlights, and the other stuff you think you can carry. The state highly recommends that you not carry them, but will not make a ruling on it. Seek additional training at your own expense if you believe you will encounter these people.

    Homeless: You will encounter homeless people when asking them to leave. They may be psycho. Be ready to run.

    Florida could do more indepth training, and allows schools to do so as long as they teach the required criteria, but the large security companies will not send their people to schools that teach more. Liability due to excessive training.

    Case in point: S2 Institute prefaces 90% of their required training with "Contract your employer before you attempt to even consider to do any of this. If you work for... Critical Intervention Services, for example, you are expected to do these things, and many more. If you work for another company... You may be terminated." And then launch into the state required first aid and CPR course.

    Yes, they actually have to disclaimer the personal decision to perform CPR and first aid by stating that your company may prohibit you from doing these things on duty or in their uniform.

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  • 1stWatch
    replied
    Safety and prevention of cases like these should really be part of basic training for us, but sadly it is not especially for those who are unarmed.

    Case in point, in the state of Texas an unarmed security guard can be put to work with a grand total of four hours of training. The four hours encompass a written multiple choice exam that is 50 questions long dealing with some really basic common sense issues and presents what the state board is to the applicant. Then some fingerprints are taken and sent off to Austin and the applicant can be put to work in uniform for a few weeks even before the non-commission card or the background checks come back. So, what we have is a weak link in the system that allows a person with zero training to be put into a position, dangerous or not, where he has to fend for himself.

    There is absolutely no prerequisite training or even continuing education available that is held, sponsored, or encouraged by the state dealing solely with private security issues. There are courses that one can take, but they are normally at personal expense. I would personally like to see courses available dealing with things like fire prevention, hazardous materials identification, comprehensive report writing, civil court issues, and court appearances. Most security guards make around $8 here and they can't afford to seek out such training, much less care about the job enough to. You can only imagine the type of quality job one would provide in that position.

    Then there is the 30 hour course a commissioned security officer is required to take. This teaches a few basics about Article 14 and Article 15 of the Code of Criminal Procedures and Chapters 9 and 46 of the Penal Code and provides a basic range qualification that is the equivalent of what a c.h.l. applicant goes through. Commissioned security is allowed to carry a club and if certified a chemical dispensing container (o.c. spray of the same size as l.e.). The batons are not regulated by type like the pistols are.

    There is normally not enough attention paid to the use of force curriculum itself during the class, so we see incidents on the field where pistols get taken away from security guards by suspects since they had trouble retaining the weapon and trouble with proper positioning, just like the story about the guy with the cell phone. You probably hear about what the armed security in cities like Dallas, San Antonio, and Houston have to deal with so you'll probably agree that a little course about Chapter 9 and then shooting at the range at 15 feet is not nearly enough. The result is someone with a gun who has poor practical skills.

    I see that the Texas D.P.S. has taken over the regulatory function of security and they even have troopers and undercover detectives investigating complaints on security officers and going through security company files. This is a great start, but I would really like to see them take over the function of training as well. I'm not sure if that will ever happen or if it has even been suggested, but what we currently have is a joke. The state does not take its private security seriously enough. This is pretty much the same way it is in every state I have read about as well.

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  • dla4122
    replied
    I guess I am tainted......

    I NEVER turn my back on anyone. But I guess that is because of what I deal with. If you wear a uniform, and in any form or fasion and represent any form of authority, be it even a Security Enforcement Officer, you MUST always be prepared to defend yourself in any situation, and never ASSUME the other person is not a threat. You never know what that person is thinking, or doing. Everyone is a potential threat until YOU decide they aint. Always place distance bewteen yourself and that person, always keep them in sight, never let them reach for anything or place there hands inside a pocket or behind them.
    DO NOT let them approach you with there hands moving. I am not sure what the law permits private security to do, but I know what I can do. I have to commend private security though, ya'll have it tough. Ya'll deal with what we deal with for little pay, and little resourses.

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  • EMTGuard
    replied
    When I posted to a discussion that was going on in the forums at Combat Carry, I was told that the MGM employee was not a guard but a gardener. The thread is at http://www.combatcarry.com/vbulletin...ighlight=vegas . While I was told that I was mistaken, that the employee was not security, it seems that several other news releases of the attack ID him as such. Maybe I wasn't wrong.

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  • 1stWatch
    replied
    On the other hand, that appears to be a very interesting forum. I think I'll have to look around and maybe join.

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  • 1stWatch
    replied
    *sigh*
    Well, as much of a believer I am of the martial arts and tactical training, I am going to have to state a difference of opinion with those in that group in regards to the job of a security guard.
    I have trained with and socialized with martial artists for the past 15 years. Most of them have some pretty noble views. However - when it comes down to the perception of one who is "properly trained", the martial artist envisions one who can successfully fend off attacks and subdue people physically. This is a misconception held by many of those people about security and about police officers too.

    As much as it pains many in those circles to think of it, 90% of those folks have never been in a sudden combat situation. Actually most I met have never been in a fight at all. Granted, if a well trained one got into a fight he would probably pound the chicken feathers out of an average person, but that unfortunate opportunity rarely presents itself.

    The reality that does present itself when you do get into a real life struggle is what we call the "sympathetic nervous system" response, or for short SNS. This is where the body's nervous system involuntarily shuts down sensory perception and increases output to the heart and the breathing and may even make the hands shake involuntarily. You'll find yourself doing some pretty stupid things when confronted with SNS. The police community realized this several decades ago. This is why most calls are handled with two officers, one primary to handle the call, and one cover element who watches the area the primary officer is in and is also there to take over for the primary officer if he starts to lose his common sense due to the onset of SNS. What embarrasses those who train to fight with their hands is all that training goes out the window when this condition sets in.

    Now, getting down to what a security guard's job is as was portrayed by what I read. There are security guards like me who are allowed by our clientele to detain those who steal property and to prevent crime as one would expect. Most of us are armed and carry handcuffs. Then there are a considerable number of security guards whose hands are tied by their clientele or their company's policy and may not lay a finger on a suspect and are not allowed to seek out improved training lest they be fired. This is what some call "warm bodies security". I call it "goober guard syndrome". This person is limited, as Corbier pointed out, to observe and report, even then only in a limited fashion. A great majority of security guards I've seen posted up in a golf cart were limited to observe and report. Lay and hand on somebody or even lift a finger to defend yourself and you're gone.

    The only hope this person had of avoiding an attack would be to have a good retreat plan. Run like hell, maybe. Most security guards I've met don't have the physical fitness necessary to outrun a group of 18 year olds. They're either really overweight or very thin with their muscles atrophied from working really long hours and standing or sitting in a sedentary position constantly, lacking sleep and proper nutrition. A better position to be in would have been in his own car. Don't roll the window down or get out and they have a lot harder time getting to you. Something tells me he either wasn't allowed that option or he wasn't going to spend his own gas on the job though.

    The idea of what is expected of the security guard is don't get involved. Limit your involvement to making a call and getting out of the way. You better not leave your post though.

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  • Defensive tactics
    replied
    true, i believe it to be the opposite myself, no weapon equals less ways to defend yourself, well mantained weapon and uniform go right up there with tactical communication, in the dont mess with me or I will bounce your head of the concrete department.

    stay safe
    Ben

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  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Of course he should of. The problem is that the average guard is not trained in defensive tactics, or situational awareness, and has "They'll leave you alone, you don't have any weapons on to hurt them, so why would they hurt you?" drilled into their head.

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  • Defensive tactics
    replied
    possibly so, but on the same token he should have scanned the area, created distance then dialed 911, IMHO

    stay safe
    Ben

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  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    This struck me as odd:

    The security guard was sitting alone in an isolated area late at night near an entrance to a parking garage behind the MGM Grand – not smart. If he had been accompanied by a co-worker the probability of the attack would have diminished. Even better, he should not have been there at all.
    As we all know, its his job to be there. And putting a co-worker on that would be "socializing" or a "waste of manpower." The only time you need two guards to patrol is when its really dangerous, and then it should be police patrolling (who may or may not do it alone).

    One youth, it was reported, took something from the cart as he walked past it. In response the guard got out, took out a cell phone, turned his back away from the cart (exposing it), looked down and started dialing – stupid.
    This is exactly what guards are trained to do. Do not become confrontational. Call 911 for any law violation. You are not a threat to the person, so it is safe to call the police, because you are not challenging them.

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  • Defensive tactics
    started a topic lack of awareness

    lack of awareness

    *sigh*
    http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=515

    stay safe
    Ben

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