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  • #16
    Duty Gear Setup

    If sidearms are issued or purchased by the individual, are holsters designed for that particular sidearm equipped with ?grab resistant? devices? If so, what retention level ? 1, 2 or 3? If not so equipped, why not? Liability issues considered?
    Those should be questions we should ask ourselves, the employer and most importantly, general counsel. We might be surprised at the responses we receive.
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Bill Warnock
      If sidearms are issued or purchased by the individual, are holsters designed for that particular sidearm equipped with ?grab resistant? devices? If so, what retention level ? 1, 2 or 3? If not so equipped, why not? Liability issues considered?
      Those should be questions we should ask ourselves, the employer and most importantly, general counsel. We might be surprised at the responses we receive.
      Enjoy the day,
      Bill
      I used to have a box of Level 2 Safariland for S&W weapons, because BY GOD, someone would go out and buy a 600 dollar S&W Revolver, and then buy a 20 dollar Uncle Mikes HUNTING holster for 15.99 with zero retention, and show up for work with it. It became a daily ritual to inspect the probationary officer's equipment upon first showing up to my site for FTO.
      Some Kind of Commando Leader

      "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

      Comment


      • #18
        I wear a Safariland Leather Duty Belt (velcro lined) with a Safariland velcro pants belt.

        Starting from the front-center and going clockwise...

        ***open-top single cuff case w/peerless chained restraints (just to the right of the front-center)
        ***open-top chemical spray case w/ 4oz Freeze+P
        ***1" belt keeper (provides seperation between chemical spray and firearm)
        ***Safariland 6004 SLS Tactical Holster w/Glock 22 .40cal with weapon mounted M3 streamlight
        ***1" belt keeper (provides seperation between firearm and baton)
        ***ASP Sidebreak Scabbard w/ 26" ASP Duratec Airweight Baton
        ***Leatherman tool
        ***1" belt keeper
        ***roughly 6" open space
        ***1" belt keeper
        ***handcuff strap w/peerless hinged restraints
        ***removable swivel radio holder
        ***open-top flashlight case w/ Blackhawk Gladius LED flashlight
        ***1" belt keeper
        ***Safariland double magazine case in horizontal draw position
        ***1" belt keeper
        ***latex glove case

        I'll add some photos when I figure out how to upload them

        Smme of you might be wondering why I utilize a velcro-attached duty belt with 6 - 1" belt keepers. The answer is simple... Officer Safety. This ensures that in the event of a struggle, nothing on my belt shifts in anyway. Also, it maintains the proper seperation between my firearm, baton, chemical spray, etc.
        "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." Sun-Tzu

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by davis002
          I wear a Safariland Leather Duty Belt (velcro lined) with a Safariland velcro pants belt.

          Starting from the front-center and going clockwise...

          ***open-top single cuff case w/peerless chained restraints (just to the right of the front-center)
          ***open-top chemical spray case w/ 4oz Freeze+P
          ***1" belt keeper (provides seperation between chemical spray and firearm)
          ***Safariland 6004 SLS Tactical Holster w/Glock 22 .40cal with weapon mounted M3 streamlight
          ***1" belt keeper (provides seperation between firearm and baton)
          ***ASP Sidebreak Scabbard w/ 26" ASP Duratec Airweight Baton
          ***Leatherman tool
          ***1" belt keeper
          ***roughly 6" open space
          ***1" belt keeper
          ***handcuff strap w/peerless hinged restraints
          ***removable swivel radio holder
          ***open-top flashlight case w/ Blackhawk Gladius LED flashlight
          ***1" belt keeper
          ***Safariland double magazine case in horizontal draw position
          ***1" belt keeper
          ***latex glove case

          I'll add some photos when I figure out how to upload them

          Smme of you might be wondering why I utilize a velcro-attached duty belt with 6 - 1" belt keepers. The answer is simple... Officer Safety. This ensures that in the event of a struggle, nothing on my belt shifts in anyway. Also, it maintains the proper seperation between my firearm, baton, chemical spray, etc.
          Three questions:

          1. How's the safariland velcro duty belt setup hold up? I've heard it chafes the uniform pants belt loops, but I figure that's a small price to pay for the system.

          2. Are the duratec's still heavy enough to "power through" a defensive strike, especially if you miss the nerve cluster target?

          3. Does that Gladius strobe pattern blind as effectively as everyone thinks it does? I looked at the video, and was impressed with it.

          I believe, also, in using belt keepers as spacers. When I wore my ASP behind my pistol, it'd always jam right up against the butt of my pistol, preventing me from drawing both. Same with cuffs. Belt keeper between the two keeps everything nice and stable - where its supposed to be.
          Some Kind of Commando Leader

          "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

          Comment


          • #20
            1. How's the safariland velcro duty belt setup hold up? I've heard it chafes the uniform pants belt loops, but I figure that's a small price to pay for the system.

            The velcro does tend to "chew" the belt loops, but to what extent really depends on the pants you wear. I wear the Elbeco Tactical Twill (65% Poly/35% Cotton), and they have held up nicely since I bought them in February.

            2. Are the duratec's still heavy enough to "power through" a defensive strike, especially if you miss the nerve cluster target?

            A positive with the duratec is the fact that it is much lighter than other models, and therefore helps with fatigue. As far as it's effectiveness, the jury is still out. A few months ago I utilized my baton on a violent and combative subject, of whom was 6'8" 325 lbs (far more than my 6'5" 210 lbs). He was quite intoxicated and assaulted an individual. While I was chasing him on foot, I gave him 3 good strikes in his right thigh (going for that infamous nerve), with absolutely no effect. I ended up having to get up next to him, and kick him in the shin to get him to go down. He went down of course, and so did I. As we are both struggling on the ground I continued to strike him in his forearms. I ended up having to deploy my chemical spray to gain any kind of control. Basically, my baton failed me in that incident. Luckily though, in the years i've been in private security and law enforcement, I have rarely ever had to utilize my baton.

            3. Does that Gladius strobe pattern blind as effectively as everyone thinks it does? I looked at the video, and was impressed with it.

            This was a recent purchase, and I haven't really been able to deploy it in that manner yet. Through my own testing of the gladius I would definately say that the strobe pattern shows promise in being able to disorient and blind a subject. It really depends on the situation though. I have drawn my firearm on numerous occassions where my weapon-mounted M3 streamlight proved to be a great tool to blind and disorient an armed subject. I am itching for the day when I can field test my gladius on a DK Disorderly subject.

            I believe, also, in using belt keepers as spacers. When I wore my ASP behind my pistol, it'd always jam right up against the butt of my pistol, preventing me from drawing both. Same with cuffs. Belt keeper between the two keeps everything nice and stable - where its supposed to be.

            The ASP behind the pistol can be the difference between life and death depending on the holster you utilize. If you have a holster like most Safariland Raptors where you have to rock the firearm back to draw, then that ASP can slow down or even prevent you from drawing your firearm when needed. My reasoning is stability and spacing. I don't know if anyone read about the sheriffs deputy in Virginia I beleive who got into a struggle with a combative male. During the struggle, her entire belt shifted to the point where her firearm was located in the small of her back. I don't care how good you are, but you are not going to draw a level III retention holster from the small of your back in a violent encounter. She was killed by her own weapon after the male disarmed her. When you utilize a velcro belt with at least 4 belt keepers, this WILL NOT happen to you.
            "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." Sun-Tzu

            Comment


            • #21
              I've heard of this (the reshifting of the entire rig) before, on more than one occassion. With the inclusion of belt keepers, the bad guy has to rip through all of those uniform pant belt loops. When your wearing those big ass keystone belt loops, that's a feat in itself.

              That nerve is great if you can hit it, but damn, everyone should wear little safety orange dots to tell us where to strike in a dynamic encounter. Some of the forums I'm on are defensive tactics instruction orientated - and I find that people eschew the tools and go to submission grappling when they're trained sufficiently to actually hold their own and overcome the person's resistance.
              Some Kind of Commando Leader

              "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

              Comment


              • #22
                Belt keepers are essential to officer safety



                Officer's sacrifice serves as reminder to law enforcement about the importance of belt keepers

                By Shelly Wilkison
                Newsline Editor
                [email protected]

                "Officer Molly," as she was called by the young people she inspired, never met a stranger. She was friendly and outgoing, and well-liked by her fellow officers.

                So when Molly Bowden, 26, passed away February 10th -- one month after being shot three times during a traffic stop -- her police family in Columbia, Missouri, was devastated. The community that was brought together during her month-long struggle to survive, grieved along with them. She was the first officer to be killed by gunfire in this city of about 100,000.

                Officer Bowden, who left behind her husband, also a Columbia police officer, two stepsons, her parents and a brother, also left law enforcement with lessons to be learned from her sacrifice.

                "It has been difficult for all of us and we're still going through the steps of the healing process," Columbia Police Chief Randall Boehm told Newsline recently.

                Chief Boehm said patrol car video of the shooting indicated Officer Bowden, who had been on the department less than three years after serving one year as a university police officer, had only 3.8 seconds to react after the suspect fired his first shot (that missed the officer) through the driver side window.

                As she moved to the rear of the vehicle to take cover, Richard Thiel Evans exited his vehicle and fired at Officer Bowden again. This time the bullet penetrated her neck and spine and she fell to the ground. Chief Boehm said the video shows the suspect moving around the car, and when he reached the officer, he fired two more shots from less than two feet away. One hit her in the lower jaw and the other struck her shoulder. The suspect then returned to his vehicle and fled the scene. Passersby saw the officer on the ground and used her radio to call for help.

                Columbia police found the killer the next day, and after a brief gunfight during which another officer was injured, the suspect killed himself.

                Upon examination of the officer's duty belt, her pistol was found still inside the triple-retention holster with only the back snap unfastened. A fellow officer reported in an email sent to Newsline that there was no belt keeper between the baton and her gun, and the baton was "moved forward so that it came between the belt and rear snap" of the holster.

                Chief Boehm said the department, which provides officers with a velcro duty belt, doesn't require belt keepers. He said some officers still wear them and others do not, but he believes that "the issue was time, and in that 3.8 seconds, she didn't have time to get her weapon drawn."

                With the development of duty belts that attach with velcro, Calibre Press warns officers not to forego belt keepers.

                "Belt keepers are designed to do two things -- they keep the inner belt and the outer belt connected and keep weapons appropriately spaced, which helps prevent them from getting in the way of one another," said Calibre Press consulting survival instructor LouAnn Hamblin, a 14-year police veteran from Van Buren Township, Michigan. "Impeding the movement required for deployment of any control device can cause serious problems for officers. Other weapons and non-essential items like cell phones, leatherman tools, etc. shouldn't impede the movement required to draw weapon systems like the pistol or Taser."

                As more agencies are requiring officers to carry collapsable batons and Tasers, accommodating them on an already crowded belt has become a challenge for many, especially smaller women and men. In order to find a place for everything, some may choose to eliminate belt keepers that can be one-half inch to three-quarters of an inch wide.

                But, survival instructors say with all of the control devices officers are required to carry, belt keepers have proven to be an essential part of the duty belt and proper use of them can keep officers safe. They say eliminating belt keepers to make room for additional weapons is the wrong choice.

                Officer Hamblin, who is 5 foot 5 inches tall and weighs 124 pounds, is the same size that she was when she first joined the force 14 years ago when the only items on her belt were a revolver, radio, mace, handcuffs and a flashlight. Since then, the department has required officers to carry a baton and a Taser, but Officer Hamblin has no room for the Taser.

                "I don't have the ability to carry one," she said. "I would have to give up my baton or OC spray to make room for it, so I'm not required to carry it."

                She said for her own safety, eliminating belt keepers to make room for a Taser wasn't an option. Holsters not separated from each other may make it more difficult to access a weapon. And when it comes to accessing a pistol, anything that restricts an officer's quick draw could prove deadly.

                Calibre Press Street Survival instructor Betsy Brantner-Smith, a 25-year veteran from Naperville, IL, said that until one year ago, she carried her collapsable baton right behind her pistol. Then, Officer Robert Hindi, inventor of the Hindi Baton Cap, suggested carrying the baton in front on the non-gun side so it wouldn't interfere with the pistol. The baton's holster can be canted at different angles for comfort and accessibility.

                "I have mine canted at a 45 degree angle in a cross-draw position," she said. "It is easy to access and doesn't interfere with movement or my ability to access my other equipment."

                Smith said after making the change, she spent lots of time training with the newly arranged duty belt to be certain that she could react quickly with her weapons in their new positions. Developing a new skill requires many repetitions, she said.

                The Calibre Street Survival Seminar advocates dynamic and realistic training with whatever equipment officers carry on their duty belts.

                "Above all, they need to be accessible and comfortable," Smith said. "Train with the stuff you're carrying, and train from the equipment's holstered position on the belt -- whether it's your baton, your spray, your handcuffs or your pistol."

                "If you train with your equipment, you know what all the possibilities are," Hamblin said.

                SECURITY HOLSTERS NEED MORE SPACE ON A BELT

                Throughout history, hundreds of peace officers have been killed because they lost control of their weapons during physical struggles with the bad guys. As a result, many law enforcement agencies today provide officers with security holsters that make it more difficult for a gun to be removed by anyone other than the officer.

                The Level III security holsters have two or three straps, depending on the make and model, that snap closed to secure a weapon in the holster.

                "Officers using this type of holster should be especially aware of other items on the duty belt that might restrict access to these snaps," said Hamblin. "Gunfights are won and lost in quarter-seconds, so every obstacle to employing lethal force can be costly to the officer."

                Because a Level III holster has a back snap, it is recommended that two belt keepers be used to separate the gun from a baton holster, Smith said. Without that separation, a baton holster is likely to stand in the way of the snap and/or the movement required to remove the gun from its holster once the strap has been unsnapped.





                Belt keepers are essential to officer safety. Not only do they secure the duty belt to the inner belt, they also provide space between weapon systems allowing officers to quickly access the tools they need to keep themselves safe. Survival instructors recommend placing two belt keepers behind the pistol, and suggest moving the baton holster to the front.

                (Photos provided by LouAnn Hamblin)





                SHIFTING GEAR

                Officer Hamblin reminds officers wearing velcro duty belts that belt keepers provide an added sense of security.

                "Every time an officer gets out of a car, or even stands up from a seated position, a belt can shift," she said. "If we get into a situation where we have to use a weapon, it's critical that it be in the right location. Otherwise, we lose valuable seconds that in the worst cases, might mean the difference between life and death."

                She said there have been many cases where duty belts shifted as officers struggled with suspects. Several years ago, a Chattanooga, Tennessee, police officer was killed with her own weapon following a struggle. When she was found, the gun holster side of her duty belt had shifted to the small of her back.

                "The whole issue is awareness," said Hamblin. "An officer has to be aware of his or her equipment, themselves and their environment. The duty belt is critial to our safety, and regardless of what model we choose or what weapons we store there, training with it will help prepare us for the worst."

                Smith and Hamblin say they were deeply saddened by news of Officer Bowden's death, and they consider her a hero.

                "Molly was an excellent officer, and she was the kind of person who never met a stranger. People liked her very much and she was perfect for the job," Chief Boehm told Newsline.
                "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." Sun-Tzu

                Comment


                • #23
                  Ok i recently started with a second security company. For this company i am allowed to carry all the weapons i am certified in. So i had to change my belt set up. All gear is Bianchi accumold Nylon. All is personally owned including my radio. I dont like using company stuff. Ok here it goes.

                  Double cuff case ( 2 sets of peerless cuffs)
                  Badge holder (when in polo uniform)
                  Silent key holder
                  Stinger case (poly stinger inside)
                  Leatherman blast
                  D-Cell holder
                  Swivel radio case (MT 2000 Radio)
                  ASP side break holder (26 In. ASP Silver Baton)
                  MK III Holder (Take down 10% OC)
                  Nextel Case
                  Pager/Glove case (2 pairs of gloves)

                  I will post pictures if wanted. I also have a Basket Weave belt that follows the same set up.
                  Last edited by Arff312; 12-22-2005, 10:13 PM.
                  Robert
                  Here endith the lesson

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I am probably going against the grain on this one. Officer Molly Bowden?s murder was a classic example of poor to nonexistent supervision. Why? At guard mount or supervisory briefings and inspection of officers and their equipment would have discovered the problem of unwarranted slack or movement. The supervisor tells an officer to stand fast for equipment check, the officer braces himself or herself. Equipment check includes the checking of break-away tie, if part of a duty uniform and the movement of the belt up and down and moving it from one side to the other to check for excess movement or slack. Correction of the problem may include the repositioning of belt and rig keepers or the addition of one or more keepers. Training and supervision do matter.
                    Enjoy the day,
                    Bill

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Bill Warnock
                      I am probably going against the grain on this one. Officer Molly Bowden?s murder was a classic example of poor to nonexistent supervision. Why? At guard mount or supervisory briefings and inspection of officers and their equipment would have discovered the problem of unwarranted slack or movement. The supervisor tells an officer to stand fast for equipment check, the officer braces himself or herself. Equipment check includes the checking of break-away tie, if part of a duty uniform and the movement of the belt up and down and moving it from one side to the other to check for excess movement or slack. Correction of the problem may include the repositioning of belt and rig keepers or the addition of one or more keepers. Training and supervision do matter.
                      Enjoy the day,
                      Bill
                      You know, that's a good idea, but I wonder how many LE agencies would actually take the time to do that - or if its even practical. Remember how many agencies use take home cars and going 10-8 from the driveway.

                      Even LEOs are getting minimal amounts of supervision, to the point they get about as much supervision going on and off duty as post working security officers.
                      Some Kind of Commando Leader

                      "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I have a real problem with the lack of supervision you mention N.A. How can you write officer effeciency reports on personnel you rarely see? I guess I had it lucky, a experienced shift captain and a sharp car captain when first in this business.
                        In order to maintain political correctness, one can assume fellow officers are encouraged to keep their mouths shut when they see a glaring problem. How can I expect backup when my backup just got murdered due to a gear problem.
                        Getting industrial/commercial security experience I remember well going to an assignment and the person being relieved just shrugged his shoulders when I asked for information about the previous shift. Sometimes the log was scary, his name logging in, logging out and my name logging in. Supervision was spotty at best but that was years ago. From what I've seen and heard, not a lot has improved.
                        Enjoy the day,
                        Bill

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Bill Warnock
                          I have a real problem with the lack of supervision you mention N.A. How can you write officer effeciency reports on personnel you rarely see? I guess I had it lucky, a experienced shift captain and a sharp car captain when first in this business.
                          In order to maintain political correctness, one can assume fellow officers are encouraged to keep their mouths shut when they see a glaring problem. How can I expect backup when my backup just got murdered due to a gear problem.
                          Getting industrial/commercial security experience I remember well going to an assignment and the person being relieved just shrugged his shoulders when I asked for information about the previous shift. Sometimes the log was scary, his name logging in, logging out and my name logging in. Supervision was spotty at best but that was years ago. From what I've seen and heard, not a lot has improved.
                          Enjoy the day,
                          Bill
                          Yeppers, that'd be quite a few people I relieved. "Anything happen?" "Bah." "I see." Log reads there was a toxic chemical fire, in this method:

                          1845 FIRE ! ! !
                          1900 PPFD said we could come back in.
                          Some Kind of Commando Leader

                          "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            for the baton i swear by asp if i works for my local pd its good enough for me.
                            as far as the oc i dont carry water based unless i have my taser. but usually i ccarry a baton so i stick with oil based
                            "Get yourself a shovel cause your in deep Sh*t"

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Ok, starting from the buckle, going clockwise..

                              Bianchi accumold (triple retention buckle) duty belt/inner belt
                              Agency pager
                              Cell phone
                              Punch II MK3 OC in Bianchi holder
                              *Keeper*
                              (blank area where my weapon used to be... sigh)
                              *Keeper*
                              Leatherman tool in Leatherman holder
                              Hiatt cuffs in Bianchi holder
                              Rubber gloves/med kit in Bianchi holder
                              Hiatt cuffs in Bianchi holder
                              Stinger XT in Bianchi holder
                              *Keeper*
                              Radio in Bianchi holder
                              Bianchi key holder
                              *Keeper*
                              ASP baton in ASP rotating scabbard (carried horizontally across the buckle)

                              When I used to carry, that agency didn't use pagers, and I kept my cell in my pocket, so that front space on the right is where my double mag would be.. Bianchi double mag holder... my holster was the only non-Bianchi, as I have the Uncle Mike's Pro-3...
                              A lot of people question my placement of the baton, as it isn't on the 'strong side'... I carry it this way for a couple reasons... 1) it doesn't interfere with drawing my weapon in any way, 2) it blocks access to the belt buckle, as more & more criminals are spending time practicing a quick 'reach & unbuckle' move rather than going straight for the gun.. and if someone WERE to try & grab the ASP all I have to do is twist my body away from them and they either A- lose their grip and balance, or B- twist with me, again losing their balance... 3) from a standard 'conversational' stance (slightly bladed, hands in front of me) I can draw AND extend the ASP in ONE quick easy movement, rather than having to reach behind me, draw, THEN extend...
                              Although my DT instructor supported the whole 'strong side / weak side' mentality, he was also a big supporter of Officers situating their gear in whatever way works the best for them...
                              Corbier's Commandos - "Stickin it to the ninjas!"
                              Originally posted by ValleyOne
                              BANG, next thing you know Bob's your Uncle and this Sgt is seemingly out on his a$$.
                              Shoulda called in sick.
                              Be safe!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Front left (weak hand) Cell phone
                                Rear left- Maglight
                                Rear center- Non-latex glove pouch (latex bad, nitril good)
                                Rear right- Portable radio
                                Front right- EMT holster w/shears, bandages scissors, penlight, pocket knife
                                Hospital Security Officer

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