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  • What type of security are you doing?

    For now, it's office buildings for me.
    But I miss working armed posts at apartment complexes.
    I'll probably be doing that again soon enough.
    Observe and report what you saw with a good flashlight.
    Bedtime at sunrise

  • #2
    Originally posted by 3rd_shift
    For now, it's office buildings for me.
    But I miss working armed posts at apartment complexes.
    I'll probably be doing that again soon enough.
    I used to do those jobs. Armed work at apartment complexes, crime suppression, drug interdiction, etc. The local police (Tampa) used to joke that we needed our own police department, we averaged enough calls for service that we should just book and transport ourselves.

    An interesting new trend is the ISPS-required port security operations. I've worked them, and have developed a security plan for a port before, with the city client. It was interesting to see how everything laid out, etc.

    I'm interested to know your duties at an apartment complex. Are you contractually there to protect property, or are you there to protect the people on it as well? Do you respond to law enforcement calls for service, or do the people just call the police for everything. And, what state are you in, since some states have arrest powers for private security and others actually take citizen rights away from private security guards.
    Some Kind of Commando Leader

    "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

    Comment


    • #3
      What type of security are you doing?

      N.A. Corbier:
      You have touched on a problem that will only grow and public policing is stretched to the maximum since 9/11. In my surveys of facilities, many have been found wanting. Too few people wearing far too many hats. They only have time to take a bite out of one function; move to the second, take a bite out of it and move on again.
      This is a thumbnail sketch:
      The security plan, if you can call it that, lacks any coordination with other members of the staff.
      There is a fundamental lack of knowledge of federal or state law, county or city ordinances required for a comprehensive security plan.
      Guard force members were not subjected to background checks. The National Intelligence Reform Act of 2004 makes possible these checks through state idenfication agencies.
      The security force did not receive training prescribed by state Private Security Service Business regualtions; of particular importance when the force is to be armed.
      The composition of the force and organization cannot be described.
      Manpower requirements were not established. Manpower calculations were not projected.
      Tours of duty were not delineated.
      Essential posts and patrols were not established.
      Written detailed general orders were not issued. Orders, if issued, were not coordinated with general counsel. If signed, they were not signed by anyone in authority.
      Written special or post orders were not issued. Post limits were not established.
      Answers to questions such as:What types of weapons, types of ammunition and equipment have been issued to the security force? Are the issued items appropriate to the situation? What should be added or deleted? Any personal ammunition or ?police? type items permitted? If side arms are issued, are holsters equipped with ?grab resistant? devices? If so, what retention level ? 1, 2 or 3? If not so equipped, why not? Liability issues considered? Are all members furnished with non-lethal or less-than-lethal equipment such as batons, chemical sprays or foams?, were vague to say the least.
      In a few instances, the plans were coordinated with general counsel or the insurance carrier. Most of the time management would just wing it!
      Enjoy the day,
      Bill

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Bill Warnock
        N.A. Corbier:
        You have touched on a problem that will only grow and public policing is stretched to the maximum since 9/11. In my surveys of facilities, many have been found wanting. Too few people wearing far too many hats. They only have time to take a bite out of one function; move to the second, take a bite out of it and move on again.
        This is a thumbnail sketch:
        The security plan, if you can call it that, lacks any coordination with other members of the staff.
        There is a fundamental lack of knowledge of federal or state law, county or city ordinances required for a comprehensive security plan.
        Guard force members were not subjected to background checks. The National Intelligence Reform Act of 2004 makes possible these checks through state idenfication agencies.
        The security force did not receive training prescribed by state Private Security Service Business regualtions; of particular importance when the force is to be armed.
        The composition of the force and organization cannot be described.
        Manpower requirements were not established. Manpower calculations were not projected.
        Tours of duty were not delineated.
        Essential posts and patrols were not established.
        Written detailed general orders were not issued. Orders, if issued, were not coordinated with general counsel. If signed, they were not signed by anyone in authority.
        Written special or post orders were not issued. Post limits were not established.
        Answers to questions such as:What types of weapons, types of ammunition and equipment have been issued to the security force? Are the issued items appropriate to the situation? What should be added or deleted? Any personal ammunition or ?police? type items permitted? If side arms are issued, are holsters equipped with ?grab resistant? devices? If so, what retention level ? 1, 2 or 3? If not so equipped, why not? Liability issues considered? Are all members furnished with non-lethal or less-than-lethal equipment such as batons, chemical sprays or foams?, were vague to say the least.
        In a few instances, the plans were coordinated with general counsel or the insurance carrier. Most of the time management would just wing it!
        Enjoy the day,
        Bill
        Isn't it wonderful? I worked for a company like that once, called Securex Services. In that capacity, I was unarmed, untrained (The state 8 hour course was given to us by another company, who simply gave us the test and answers and sent us on a 6 hour coffee break), and saddled with a guy who was a total idiot.

        In the year I worked for them, I was assigned gate sentry for a Coast Guard Air Station. We had a fixed gate post, which to pass it was a felony under FAA, USC, and FL Statues, a motor patrol post, where we were expected to challenge and detain all unauthorized persons without weapon, restraint, or communications, and had a massive supervision problem: The Airport Police believed they were over us, since they were police and we were security, and everyone knows cops out rank guards. The company would tell the police department: They're not your guards, stop giving them orders. The USCG did too. THey were eventually replaced by sheriff's deputies, the entire airport police, as they were struggling to keep their agency since it was very redundant. 12 officers, 1 sergeant, and 1 lieutenant A SHIFT, and yet they were replaced with two deputies. That's cause they were too busy driving slow on the air station, or generating airport revenue in the 4 mile patrol zone doing speed enforcement.

        But, I digress. The "perception" of public policing being at the breaking point, or near it, is something only people with Master of Criminal Justice Administration or perhaps Doctorates understand. The average street cop still believes two things:

        Guards are idiots, and trying to take their jobs away from them.
        Uppity (This word has been used before, describing two former employers, by local police) Security "GUARD" companies (Emphasis always) are taking our jobs away from us, and we're professionals, and they're not.

        I've studied police/security interaction. I live in a state where the government does not see a need to create mandates, and the oversight commission for PIs and Security was disbanded. The state agency responsible for licensing security decided to take it from the local police chief, and stick with PI companies. To run a security firm up here, you must be a PI agency, with a licensed PI in command. Does this make sense? It does, scarily enough.

        Wisconsin calls "private security persons" three things in statute: "Private Security Person," "Private Investigator," and "Private Police Officer." You may perform "Private Police" services, if you are a security company. Its a tactic that I use to illustrate the difference between myself and the other yahoos who will also scrub your floors while guarding your facility.

        While I'm rambling, that's another thing that I don't understand. Clients must not be used to, or not expecting, protective services. Perhaps their risk index is too low, or they weren't concretely shown the Return of Investment in professional contract security. Their insurance company dictated it, or maybe they were robbed once but that was awhile ago. They demand more tangible proof of RoI, which includes doing the stupidest things ever, like washing floors or taking out laundry. This gives the police and media even more ammunition to keep the public opinion towards "barney fifeism."

        The lack of standards is infuriating for me, as the public perception we're held up to is: Law Enforcement. Most companies don't review their guidelines with general counsel. They don't have a Use of Force Matrix, they don't teach about vicarious liability, etc. But when it hits the fan, and the agency and guard is sued, what standard does the public hold them up to? The police.

        I've said alot, but I'm not done, just going to several other topics to make. There are issues that should be addressed, and non-compliant person hunted down and leaned on HEAVILY till they are. In the 1940s, or so, police officers were low paid civil servants who "the brotherhood" wasn't always there. Now, they are regarded as highly paid professionals, with several faternal and collective bargining assocations, who command pensions and vast powers.

        If you look at Florida's Private Investigator lobby, you can see where good organization can make improvements. Security Officers (The statutory term) were required to carry .38 caliber revolvers. PIs, when working security or working planclothes, could carry 9mm pistol or .380 auto pistols. The PI lobby group even picked up the cause of a statutory redefinition for armed security officers (Why armed? Why not all?) which made battery a felony. Guards (Florida changes the term, alot, back and forth) who worked for the Regent of a Public Junior College were afforded that redef, since the JCs couldn't have University Police.

        Which was fun, since a member of the public who thought he could wail on a security officer found himself beat down by that officer, and arrested for felony battery. It created an uproar.
        Some Kind of Commando Leader

        "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

        Comment


        • #5
          3rd and 2nd shifts in one of the larger hospitals in st louis

          Comment


          • #6
            What type of security are you doing?

            There are now on the ground in New Orleans - local, state and federal LEOs in addition to National Guard soldiers and Federal Military, Army, Marines and Airmen. The Chief of Police NOPD stated on CNN tonight he doesn't know who is in charge and he has asked ATF, ICE, State Guard, Federal Armed Forces, with no one stepping up to the plate and taking responsibility. Medical personnel are at a loss as their duplication in one location and nothing in another area. Written security orders do not exist. Security forces are just winging it. According to CNN, there are only draft emergency and evacuation plans. The date appeared to be blanked out. One unconfirmed report was there was not money in Corps of Engineers budget to run a test exercise of the varied plans in which it was a major player.
            We should expect more of all forms of government. As of now, it is a game of CYA.
            Take heart, hope it gets better,
            Bill

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Bill Warnock
              There are now on the ground in New Orleans - local, state and federal LEOs in addition to National Guard soldiers and Federal Military, Army, Marines and Airmen. The Chief of Police NOPD stated on CNN tonight he doesn't know who is in charge and he has asked ATF, ICE, State Guard, Federal Armed Forces, with no one stepping up to the plate and taking responsibility. Medical personnel are at a loss as their duplication in one location and nothing in another area. Written security orders do not exist. Security forces are just winging it. According to CNN, there are only draft emergency and evacuation plans. The date appeared to be blanked out. One unconfirmed report was there was not money in Corps of Engineers budget to run a test exercise of the varied plans in which it was a major player.
              We should expect more of all forms of government. As of now, it is a game of CYA.
              Take heart, hope it gets better,
              Bill
              First, the jibe: Police departments sneer and warn of "fly by night security guard companies." Should we warn about "fly by night governments?" Seriously, this is insane. First TSA, now a complete breakdown at DHS of who's in charge of a scene.

              There need to be severe changes in the way that FEMA, part of DHS, deals with disasters. People don't want to compare NO to a terrorist incident, but this is a good comparison to a tactical nuclear strike. Radiation would still linger, making emergency services at risk, as they are now. People would give up, cut off from their government life line of social services, and degrade into anarchy, as they are now. And the local government would be screaming, "WE JUST GOT NUKED! WE NEED HELP!!!!" and the federal government would be replying, "We have people on the ground, and they have not reported any instances of a nuclear detonation, as of yet," just as they are now. They LOST a convention center and survivors. Now, either NO City Government didn't tell them, or they got lost in the shuffle, but it was all over the media, and someone should of at least investigated the media claim. Don't wait for verification, verify it yourself.
              Some Kind of Commando Leader

              "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

              Comment


              • #8
                What type of security are you doing?

                N.A. Corbier:
                You make excellent points; but as of 1800 hrs in the east, 1700 hrs in NO, there are City Forces under the command of the Mayor, National Guard Forces under the command of the Governor and Federal forces under the command of Northern Command. There is no central command, no chain of command. Orders are being issued and orders countermanded. As of the time indicated above, a GAG order was posted by the Governor and Pentagon; there are to be no statements issued to anyone outside that particular chain of command and not to the press.
                The last issue to be discussed was the forceable removal of citizens from their homes. The Mayor cites health concerns. The Governor stated that no National Guard members would be used to enforce that order. It would appear that no one but the Mayor would like to evict someone without a certified court order. My training, from USAF Police and County Sheriff, holds that if a person wishes to remain in their home, not an apartment, they cannot be removed from there with proper authorization. The only time you could be removed is if you presented a threat to your neighbors. If only yourself, then only you are endangered.
                This is AD Hoc law, which should be a terror to us all. Those with public safety responsibility must look to their emergency plans and programs and do so with all deliberate speed!
                Bill

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Bill Warnock
                  N.A. Corbier:
                  You make excellent points; but as of 1800 hrs in the east, 1700 hrs in NO, there are City Forces under the command of the Mayor, National Guard Forces under the command of the Governor and Federal forces under the command of Northern Command. There is no central command, no chain of command. Orders are being issued and orders countermanded. As of the time indicated above, a GAG order was posted by the Governor and Pentagon; there are to be no statements issued to anyone outside that particular chain of command and not to the press.
                  The last issue to be discussed was the forceable removal of citizens from their homes. The Mayor cites health concerns. The Governor stated that no National Guard members would be used to enforce that order. It would appear that no one but the Mayor would like to evict someone without a certified court order. My training, from USAF Police and County Sheriff, holds that if a person wishes to remain in their home, not an apartment, they cannot be removed from there with proper authorization. The only time you could be removed is if you presented a threat to your neighbors. If only yourself, then only you are endangered.
                  This is AD Hoc law, which should be a terror to us all. Those with public safety responsibility must look to their emergency plans and programs and do so with all deliberate speed!
                  Bill

                  Think we need to start a topic on this in Security Management. This is textbook "THIS IS NOT HOW TO RUN AN INCIDENT SCENE" for companies. Could you imagine if a nuclear power plant security police unit was run like this during an engagement? Actually, I can. I can see the city police showing up, getting into a running gunfight with the attackers, and then engaging the security police force cause they don't know that they're not security guards and guards don't carry M-16s....

                  But, yes, your right. From my training in residential security and study of residential law, at least in Florida, even the Sheriff with an emergency eviction order must give you 24 hours to vacate the permises or turn the premises over to the Sheriff (Not the owner.) That gives you time to file a civil injunction and request for relief if you need to, as well.

                  Some have stated that the mayor has gone nuts. I've been asked if I wanted to come down to NO with a group of volunteers attached to Red Cross Disaster Relief to setup force protection and escort services to the group. My reply was simple: No way. Its too unstable down there, and I'm not talking about rioters or water, I'm talking the government(s). Good luck.

                  Cause I have a life sized picture of us getting through a FEMA checkpoint, in escort formation, then the LNG is like, "Ok, you can go through," and then we're pinned down by BGs and NOPD starts shooting at all of us. No thank you. If I wanted infantry combat, I'd be in Iraq.
                  Some Kind of Commando Leader

                  "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    What type of security are you doing?

                    Geoff:
                    N.A. Corbier has a good idea; would that fit within the context of this site? I think it would.
                    Now, N.A., there is a crying need for a basic planning structure and in the instant case, there was none. If I heard and read correctly, the plan for disaster management, recovery and evacuation, if one could call it that, was in draft form. It had been in that state for the past five years. Therefore, no coordination neither organic nor external.
                    In Air Force's Strategic Air Command Plans, Programs and Training there was a lot of "What if's" that had been answered. For instance, a power transmitter set to the primary frequency blots out Air/Security Police radio communications. What do you do? Most numbered Air Forces had set up three frequencies for police, several for command and control and maintenance. One was SAC wide. That is just one item. During an ORI, Operational Readiness Inspection, the whole plan was tested, every aspect. As a former NCOIC, Training and Plans Division, I have first hand experience with these plans. If you failed an ORI, you had a reinspection within 90 days. Fail that one, you have a new Wing or Group Commander and a lot of folks looking for new jobs. Most senior officer failees went to Air Training Command in those days long ago. Other officers were separated from active service and enlisted were not recommended for reinlistment. At least something was done to make the system function.
                    Enough military, but you get the picture. In this case, most of the top positions in Home Land Security and FEMA and lawyers and lawyer-speak.
                    There is supposed to be review of emergency plans when you get federal money. The same applies to state money. Who reviews? Who supervises drills? The term "SNAFU" is left wanting.
                    Bill

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bill Warnock
                      Geoff:
                      N.A. Corbier has a good idea; would that fit within the context of this site? I think it would.
                      Now, N.A., there is a crying need for a basic planning structure and in the instant case, there was none. If I heard and read correctly, the plan for disaster management, recovery and evacuation, if one could call it that, was in draft form. It had been in that state for the past five years. Therefore, no coordination neither organic nor external.
                      In Air Force's Strategic Air Command Plans, Programs and Training there was a lot of "What if's" that had been answered. For instance, a power transmitter set to the primary frequency blots out Air/Security Police radio communications. What do you do? Most numbered Air Forces had set up three frequencies for police, several for command and control and maintenance. One was SAC wide. That is just one item. During an ORI, Operational Readiness Inspection, the whole plan was tested, every aspect. As a former NCOIC, Training and Plans Division, I have first hand experience with these plans. If you failed an ORI, you had a reinspection within 90 days. Fail that one, you have a new Wing or Group Commander and a lot of folks looking for new jobs. Most senior officer failees went to Air Training Command in those days long ago. Other officers were separated from active service and enlisted were not recommended for reinlistment. At least something was done to make the system function.
                      Enough military, but you get the picture. In this case, most of the top positions in Home Land Security and FEMA and lawyers and lawyer-speak.
                      There is supposed to be review of emergency plans when you get federal money. The same applies to state money. Who reviews? Who supervises drills? The term "SNAFU" is left wanting.
                      Bill
                      And the hijacking continues. But, lets go with this. Who does review? Agencies get federal grant money for DHS and that. Most of it is still tied up. We, as contractors, can't touch any of that money earmarked for public administration, but OUR money comes with so much legalese and oversight - the technical representatives, the contracting officers, the 400 page bids - that if we screw up ONE DOT, it goes to a higher bidder who shows competency.

                      Where is the competency review for public money?
                      Some Kind of Commando Leader

                      "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I am a security officer for the mall here.
                        Robert
                        Here endith the lesson

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Arff312
                          I am a security officer for the mall here.
                          Malls. What do you do at the mall? Ie: Do you respond to incidents at stores, or are the stores off limits since they're not the client? Do you remove persons from the property, or does the mall hire off-duty police officers to enforce rules, while security officers roam around and report incidents to them?
                          Some Kind of Commando Leader

                          "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Well NA you are full of questions. I am a security officer for the mall. This is my second job my primary job is US Air Force Firefighter. The mall does not employ off duty police officers. We handle most of the stuff then call for police assistance when needed. I am still really new at this tomorrow is only my second day working for the company.
                            Robert
                            Here endith the lesson

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Arff312
                              Well NA you are full of questions. I am a security officer for the mall. This is my second job my primary job is US Air Force Firefighter. The mall does not employ off duty police officers. We handle most of the stuff then call for police assistance when needed. I am still really new at this tomorrow is only my second day working for the company.
                              Yes, I do. Helps those reading understand what the different job functions of security are. In some malls, your sole job would be to walk around and call for the off duty police officer who actually handles the situation. In others, you would be deputized by the mall governing cooperative as a special police officer, and have full arrest powers. Some malls do not provide security or protective services for their client stores - ie: If someone starts attacking someone right inside a store, your job is to allow the client store to deal with it. Its "not your property." Others require their tenants to sign agreements that store security will assist mall security, and vice versa - so that if something bad happens, you can assist the plainclothes store detectives, and vice versa.
                              Some Kind of Commando Leader

                              "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                              Comment

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