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  • Detaining?

    I live in Australia and need some quick info. Can doctors and security officers detain and hold self harm patients without a schedule for reasons of "duty of care" to the patient?
    We haven't had trouble for a while, Let's cancel security!

  • #2
    Originally posted by crankloud
    I live in Australia and need some quick info. Can doctors and security officers detain and hold self harm patients without a schedule for reasons of "duty of care" to the patient?
    Call your local prosecutors office to verify that, AND get it in writing.

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    • #3
      And the State Police or whoever does your guard card program. Even if the local Crown Prosecutor agrees, the licensing authority could consider it a breach of their regulations.
      Some Kind of Commando Leader

      "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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      • #4

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        • #5
          ^ If you're contracted like I am, you can't touch the patient unless the patient has already done something to warrent it, or has touched you. The maintainence guys in the hospital can however.

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          • #6
            Not true. In the Great State of Florida ( ) Either a Doctor or a Law Enforcement Officer may order a patient to be placed under a psychological evaluation for up to 72 hours under Florida Mental Health Act, F.S. 394, or the Baker Act.

            Now as far as your ability to detain them? That is up to your facilities policies. Here at this hospital we have a strict Hands Off Policy. We try and do a passive control by standing in the door and telling them to sit back down. If they listen great, if they get in my face and say "move or I'll f***ing kill you" I calmly step away and have PBX call PD. Now I have a time or two suggested to a Doctor that they order restraints at that time we will hold a patient but we can not actually put the restraints on the patient.

            Now having said that yes I have put my hands on a patient. But generally its a gentle nudge that sends them in the direction that I want them or something. I see a change coming in the future with this policy and as it comes around I'll keep you guys informed

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            • #7
              We can always put our hands on a patient in a "law enforcement" capacity. I.e. We can use force to prevent or terminate their unlawful behavior. The issue becomes what is enforcing the law (protecting people) and what is medical intervention (restraining under prescription order.)

              Since we're not medical care givers, We should be as weary of using force in areas that are clearly not "law enforcement." Wisconsin's standard for care includes that private security officers or law enforcement officers summoned to the scene of a patient should only use force in their law enforcement capacity. This is to obey federal law guaranting the patients to a facility free from threat of violence (to them.)

              If you're using force to protect people or property, or are using force to ensure a violator complies with a law or is remanded into custody for said violation, then that's not a "medical" issue, and the use of force is justified.

              But, if you're using force under the order of a physician who is proscribing restraints, you are now a medical care-giver, and just stepped out of the entire ball park. There are standards for medical restraint that include numbers vs. force, managing aggression, etc. Most of these would make us cringe, from what I've been told, because they're designed to minimize injury to all, instead of quickly terminate the threat.
              Some Kind of Commando Leader

              "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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              • #8
                10-96

                In my hospital we are in house and it if a patinet is even remotely acting like wanting to leave we are called to stand-by the medical staff usually says he / she can not leave untill... if they try to leve we STOP them and redirect or if they fight we restrain them (normaly their is alot of talking before restrainig), some time during the fight medical staff usually shows up and watches some pitch in and help but ussually we area on our own. The Dr usually tells us if the pt. does... restrain them. This in the USA

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                • #9
                  Under those circumstances, you are working under the auspices of a physician. You are not detaining the patient of your own authority.
                  I believe I speak for everyone here sir, when I say, to Hell with our orders.
                  -Lieutenant Commander Data
                  sigpic

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                  • #10
                    Connecticut has a statute that allows a s/o to restrain a patient if ordered to by the attending physician. Even so, it doesn't mean that your name and the name of your security company won't be listed under "Defendants" if a civil suit arises.

                    Think about it. You're falsely accused of a crime by the state, hire an attorney, and are found not guilty by a jury. Does the state pay your legal fees? No! Likewise, even if you successfully defend yourself in a civil suit, the expense will be considerable. Attorneys like to cast a wide net and see how many "fish" they can pull in.
                    Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mr. Security
                      Connecticut has a statute that allows a s/o to restrain a patient if ordered to by the attending physician. Even so, it doesn't mean that your name and the name of your security company won't be listed under "Defendants" if a civil suit arises.

                      Think about it. You're falsely accused of a crime by the state, hire an attorney, and are found not guilty by a jury. Does the state pay your legal fees? No! Likewise, even if you successfully defend yourself in a civil suit, the expense will be considerable. Attorneys like to cast a wide net and see how many "fish" they can pull in.
                      If I'm named in a civil suit I win, I am counter-suing for libel, defamation of character, malicious prosecution, and any other big words my attorney can think of. Oh, and attorney's fees.
                      Some Kind of Commando Leader

                      "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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                      • #12
                        10-96

                        Originally posted by Tennsix
                        Under those circumstances, you are working under the auspices of a physician. You are not detaining the patient of your own authority.
                        Correct! we detain ONLY if the DR says they cant leave but if they can leave AMA (Against Medical Advise) we cant stop them and some time other medical staff want us to hold them but we cant and if we do we are unlawfully restraining / detaining them and we go to jail! So if other (RN's) staff wants the patient to say we can try to talk them into staying but if the dont want to stay they are let leave.

                        On the other hand if some one has comitted a crime like theft or so on then we can cuff them and wait for local PD

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                        • #13
                          At our facility (located in Wisconsin) we will only physically restrain a patient from leaving if we have a written alcohol hold order from a physician or a mental health hold ordered by the courts or law enforcement. In cases other than these we will try to talk the patient back into their room and if they do not comply we will follow until law enforcement can be summoned to place a hold. If there is a legal hold in place we will attempt to physically prevent the person from leaving and if they resist we are then authorized to use force in protecting ourselves and staff. This also appies to the use of restraints, medical staff are responsible for placing the patient in restraints, but if the patient resists it is then our duty to assist and ensure the safety of the staff members. Hope this helps.
                          Drew Neckar
                          Hospital Security Supervisor
                          ---------------------------------------------------

                          Always forgive your enemies--nothing annoys them so much.
                          --Oscar Wilde—

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