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  • #61
    LOL, hopefully I wont get flamed out here too much for dropping my .02 worth, on Securita's. But my honest opinion, as staed by so many, I will go back to pulling engines or the military long before ever allwoing the thought of working for them, regardless of pay offers. I make plenty now, and even if offered twice the salary I have currently, it would be more to the point that money isnt always the solution to a happy job!

    Some of the department stores within my mall have a "Securita's" Officer on site the whole time of business hours, and still the store calls me for response. Many times after we have wrapped up an incident, and ready to clear it, the Securita's Officer will come walking in, wondering whats happened. The poor guy was working a different area then where the incident occured, and the client knows better than to call him onto the incident, as they observe and report only.

    Yesterday, I received a call from one of our major retail department stores, and the Operations Manager was asking for my departments emergency phone number, and wanted extra copies for all the clerks. Come to find out, they are having severe losses in inventory, and cant suffer any more from such major hits and so frequently. This poor operations manager looked like she was on her last string. Once I detailed what all I could do for her and her store, she seemed very releived and more than excited to start calling us on her issues. I walked out of her office excited that I started a new assitful partnership with such a major chain retail. As I was gleaming in my happiness, I walked by a Securita's Security Officer which was contracted to this store.
    Deputy Sheriff

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Mall Director
      LOL, hopefully I wont get flamed out here too much for dropping my .02 worth, on Securita's. But my honest opinion, as staed by so many, I will go back to pulling engines or the military long before ever allwoing the thought of working for them, regardless of pay offers. I make plenty now, and even if offered twice the salary I have currently, it would be more to the point that money isnt always the solution to a happy job!

      Some of the department stores within my mall have a "Securita's" Officer on site the whole time of business hours, and still the store calls me for response. Many times after we have wrapped up an incident, and ready to clear it, the Securita's Officer will come walking in, wondering whats happened. The poor guy was working a different area then where the incident occured, and the client knows better than to call him onto the incident, as they observe and report only.

      Yesterday, I received a call from one of our major retail department stores, and the Operations Manager was asking for my departments emergency phone number, and wanted extra copies for all the clerks. Come to find out, they are having severe losses in inventory, and cant suffer any more from such major hits and so frequently. This poor operations manager looked like she was on her last string. Once I detailed what all I could do for her and her store, she seemed very releived and more than excited to start calling us on her issues. I walked out of her office excited that I started a new assitful partnership with such a major chain retail. As I was gleaming in my happiness, I walked by a Securita's Security Officer which was contracted to this store.
      I must ask myself if the blame is shared by the client. What have they asked for, or agreed to, contractually? After all the client should be setting the parameters of the job duties. In the case of the Operations Manager - is she authorized to contract the security or does this come from higher corporate? Seems to me she should be discussing the issues she is facing with her corporate headquarters too, finding solutions to the inadequate security and inventory losses.
      "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle

      Comment


      • #63
        Securitas usually makes clients sign a exclusivity agreement, that operations manager most likely is in material breach of contract for calling another security provider.

        Has a written agreement giving you "agent of the owner" powers been established? If you arrest/detain shoplifters, do you do so under merchant's privelage statutes or under common/statutorial general arrest laws?

        Security companies are not law enforcement agencies, and calling another that is "nearby" to assist is not like calling the police. Without the proper contractual duties setup, in writing by parties who are authorized to deal with such issues, both the client and the provider being summoned quickly find out that they're in material non-compliance with the Securitas contract, and applicable laws.

        If your officers were armed with firearms (I understand Valor doesn't do this), then imagine what would happen when they left their assigned geographical location and were now illegally carrying firearms, because the operations manager was getting "free services."

        That's the other issue, the client store is now getting free service, in a way. Do they help pay, specifically, for the contract security in the mall proper?
        Some Kind of Commando Leader

        "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

        Comment


        • #64
          Nathan, I know from when I ran the site for the contract company here that there was a clause in the contract that would force them to subcontract with other companies to provide the agreed upon manpower should it be necessary. I know of only one instance when the Security Director gave serious consideration to implementing that clause - didn't in the end, but he had me on standby to call for it.

          As to whether that clause exists in the contract with the current company - which happens to be the one mentioned in this thread - I couldn't say.

          But, I agree with you that the Operations Manager may be in breach of the contract if such clause(s) are not in the contract they have implemented.

          It would create an even larger headache for them. Again, I must wonder what she action she has taken in discussing the issues with her corporate offices.
          "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
            Securitas usually makes clients sign a exclusivity agreement, that operations manager most likely is in material breach of contract for calling another security provider.

            Has a written agreement giving you "agent of the owner" powers been established? If you arrest/detain shoplifters, do you do so under merchant's privelage statutes or under common/statutorial general arrest laws?

            Security companies are not law enforcement agencies, and calling another that is "nearby" to assist is not like calling the police. Without the proper contractual duties setup, in writing by parties who are authorized to deal with such issues, both the client and the provider being summoned quickly find out that they're in material non-compliance with the Securitas contract, and applicable laws.

            If your officers were armed with firearms (I understand Valor doesn't do this), then imagine what would happen when they left their assigned geographical location and were now illegally carrying firearms, because the operations manager was getting "free services."

            That's the other issue, the client store is now getting free service, in a way. Do they help pay, specifically, for the contract security in the mall proper?
            Are you ready for this one?? LOL! THis is where it gets fun and challenging. I hope I can explain this set-up to the best of its actual operations.

            In a Mall Environment, from mall property line to mall property line (one end of the parking lot straight through to the other side of the parking lot, and all of it included) the Mall Management maintains all property rights and values at all times, regardless of "tenant lease" or contracts, which is written into the contracts. As you stated before, "no privelages or rights shall be acrued by the entry into or onto Mall property" and that "any time the privelages or rights may be recinded at the mall's descretion". Having said this, a department store takes contract with the mall to open business on the mall's property and follow all contractual parameters of the Mall management. Undeer these contractual parameters, the mall maintains its own vested interest within the mall and its merchant (tenants or stores) for safety and coproate policies.

            A store may purchase it's own Security Agency to operate with in that stores parameters, or area. This store may add to but not take away from them Mall's rules and regulations, as long as it does not contradict the Mall's preset regulations or bind the Mall from its operations. So, the store determines to add a company such as Securita's to its operations. Securita's falls under their client, the store, which falls under their client, the Mall itself.

            The security agency, such as Securita's conducts its procedures with in the store freely as any agency would. They are charged with the duties and responsibilities of that store, as an addition to the stores needs. Where we fall in, the Mall Security, is that we are charged with the operations of all the mall area, to include parking lots and common areas. The Securita's Officer can operate freely and make determinations with in its store as to the handling of, let say, a violator or criminal subject, but since the the violation occured or crime occured on mall property, the Mall Security may also take action to the incident.

            Here is a typical scenerio of the operations: The store has a shoplifting. The shoplifter enters onto mall property, then the store and comitts the crime. Lets say for some unusual reason, the shoplifter is apprehended with in the store. The store's clerk makes a lawful citizens arrest on the shoplifter. The store contacts it's security (say Securita's or any other form) to the area of the crime. This Security Agency collects as much information as they are permitted to do so under that Security Agencies guidelines and reports per procedures. The Security Agency has taken all the action it can per its corporate guidelines. This is where it doesnt stop. The store represenative determines that they do not want this shoplifter in their store again and wants to persue charges, so the Store calls the police, and even in some cases Mall Security. If the Police are called, such as at our mall, the POlice arrive and in our case, the police ask the store if Mall Security has been called. If the answer is no, then the police call Mall Security in our case. We respond. Why? Some security agencies can not or ar not permitted to take any further action. We come in, and process the shoplifter for a Criminal Trespass Warning for a determined duration. The Mall Security's trespass warning is not limitted to the store, but the entire mall. We do this to prevent the shoplifter from coming back to the mall and stealing from another store. Regardless of what the Stores Security has determined to do, Mall Security has the Mall, and its entirety to take responsibility for.

            Another scenerio, in which the Stores Security may not be adaquate for ssome incidents, are those of a violent nature. Take one of these stores, who hire an observe and report only operation of security, and a criminal ellement has enter the store and become violent or threatening. Now of cours ethe police are called. The time it takes police to respond and find the correct store (due to police operations being city wide, and to memorize or be aware of exact store locations, is nearly impossible through no fault of the police), the time it will take the police to arrive on location and handle the violent subject is longer than that of our Department. So, the Police may or may not have been called, regardless, the Mall Security, or our department for example, can respond immediately, as we have been trained to do so. During the response, the police are contacted by our department as well during the response, to ensure they are responding. The subject who is violent and taking action in the store is determined to be a threat that can safely be overcome by our Officers, upon arrival. Now, the observe and report security agency is more than likely not trained or equipped to handle this type of subject, and by their policies are not to take action, whereas the Mall Security, or our department, is trained and qualified to operate in this area, are able to secure the subject safely. The subject is now under the citizens arrest of the Mall Security for violating not only the Mall's Rules and Regulations, but for criminal violations as well, because the Mall Security responded and arrived on the subject comitting the criminal act in their presence. The store at this point may take action by prosecution, or no action. But because this crime occured on Mall property, the Mall Security can also take prosecutory aciton against the criminal subject.

            In the case of the shoplifting, because the store clerk witnessed the criminal act, the clerk may make a citizens arrest. The Mall Security is called upon and is not there to re-arrest the shoplifter, but to assist the clerk or whoever else, in making sure the situation is safe and offer other forms of assistance. In most of our cases, the store may have their own security, but due to what they can do, if the subject becomes a danger, there is only so much an "oserve and report" security agency can do, where as we can offer a little more protection.

            Another aspect of where the Mall's Security can operate with more freedom, where a stores security agency can not, is the potential to find a shoplifting or criminal violating subject. Most subjects will not wait around to be found when they violate. They leave the store, and this leaves the Stores Security agency bound in most cases, where as if the mall security is contacted, the search parameters are widely broadened.

            I am not trying to "bad mouth" any security agency that operates in the manner of which they are limitted, as they are doing only what they can do. My issue is that maybe with some training and freedom to operate within what they are legally permitted to do, can they offer more to their client.

            There are so many other facets to the operations of store vs. mall Securty, that I could write forever. My point was that a Company such as Securita's could be more effective if they stepped away from barring their staff to operate within legal parameters, and to a much lower level standard. Yes, none of these areas are police, but safety is the basis for security.
            Deputy Sheriff

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by aka Bull
              Nathan, I know from when I ran the site for the contract company here that there was a clause in the contract that would force them to subcontract with other companies to provide the agreed upon manpower should it be necessary. I know of only one instance when the Security Director gave serious consideration to implementing that clause - didn't in the end, but he had me on standby to call for it.

              As to whether that clause exists in the contract with the current company - which happens to be the one mentioned in this thread - I couldn't say.

              But, I agree with you that the Operations Manager may be in breach of the contract if such clause(s) are not in the contract they have implemented.

              It would create an even larger headache for them. Again, I must wonder what she action she has taken in discussing the issues with her corporate offices.
              In the store's concerns, the contractual agreement between the store and its corporate office, may vary or hold stipulations, but the nice thing about operating a store with in a mall, is that regardless of what a stores corporate office has determined, the store still resides on the property of a mall, and has to adhear to the mall's contractual agreement, which is where mall security falls into. Fortunately, the Operations Director of the store will not be breaching any clause of her corporate or the Securita's corporate by asking for help from the Mall, as this store is held on the malls property.

              In a sense, that would be like the store having a clause in the contract that states only the seucirty agency may contact the police in the event of a crime. Not only would that be unsafe, but it would be a violation of civil rights. The same sense falls that even though the store is the store, and its contents are subject to the security agency, the store still resides on the mall's property and to violate the original property owners rights would be a violation, and cant be contracted to do so.

              The action she takes to discuss any matter of the operations within her store is yes, its her repsonsibility to do so, but she is subject to more than just her corporate by operating on a property that is not hers in its entirety. The stores in a mall have limited property rights, especially under leasing. If the store was to purchase outright the property and attain full ownership of the said property, then the request for mall security is denied, as its no longer the mall's property. We, as Mall Security, to operate off of mall property would be a violation not only against the store, but against the mall and the public. Leasing laws are tricky and contain alot of parameters, which can be fun to operate within!
              Deputy Sheriff

              Comment


              • #67
                Mall Director, for the most part I agree with what you are saying about Securitas. I do however take issue with one of your points. In your post you talk about a "violent" incident and mall security being able to handle it when contract security can't. First off Mall security is contract security, not Proprieatary security. What that means is, at least in this state, mall security does not have a duty to act. Proprietary security MUST act to incidents on property. Second, I must admit I have never personally witnessed another security company at a mall. The closest I came to witnessing that was when I worked for a private company that did alarm response. I responded to a couple of different malls for alarms inside the store, but their security helped me. Now, I guess I take issue with this because you are making it out to sound like you guys are a bunch of wannabe cops who police the mall. Don't get me wrong states are different and Im not going to turn this into a huge debate over laws and responsibilities. This is how I see it though, The securitas officer is contracted to provide additional services to the store. Your company (Valor I think is what you said) is contracted to provide services to the mall. I have a strong doubt that your training will exceed that of another company. I can also tell you the police will not call you until after they have the suspect under control. If they called you before that they would be assuming liability for your safety which they will not endanger civilians. Second, "escorting" the police on property would not be necessary as a) an RP would undoubetdly be at the door waiting and b) a very obvious crowd would form. If you were notified they would only do so after the suspect is in custody and only to issue a mall wide trespass warning. I have worked with mall security in the past and since most malls are owned by national companies the policies are the same. I have yet to see a mall that allows its officers to "knowingly engage in physical altercations" with its customers. By having its security officers respond to fights and attempt to control the fight or act of violence; the officers, security company, and mall all put themselves up for some serious liability. Likewise, I have yet to see a mall allow its officers to carry any type of weapon, even pepper spray is not allowed. Because both mall security and store security are contract, they are held to the same legal standards which means store security has the same authoity as you do. There is no I'm mall security so I outrank the store security. You are both on the same level with the same authority. Now the flipside to this is the loss prevention guys. They are proprietary and are employees of the store. They have the right to use whatever force is legal and permitted by the store to apprehend criminals. LP can and sometimes does override the mall security. As I have said I have worked with several malls in the past and these are my observations.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Michael Ledgerwood
                  Mall Director, for the most part I agree with what you are saying about Securitas. I do however take issue with one of your points. In your post you talk about a "violent" incident and mall security being able to handle it when contract security can't. First off Mall security is contract security, not Proprieatary security. What that means is, at least in this state, mall security does not have a duty to act. Proprietary security MUST act to incidents on property. Second, I must admit I have never personally witnessed another security company at a mall. The closest I came to witnessing that was when I worked for a private company that did alarm response. I responded to a couple of different malls for alarms inside the store, but their security helped me. Now, I guess I take issue with this because you are making it out to sound like you guys are a bunch of wannabe cops who police the mall. Don't get me wrong states are different and Im not going to turn this into a huge debate over laws and responsibilities. This is how I see it though, The securitas officer is contracted to provide additional services to the store. Your company (Valor I think is what you said) is contracted to provide services to the mall. I have a strong doubt that your training will exceed that of another company. I can also tell you the police will not call you until after they have the suspect under control. If they called you before that they would be assuming liability for your safety which they will not endanger civilians. Second, "escorting" the police on property would not be necessary as a) an RP would undoubetdly be at the door waiting and b) a very obvious crowd would form. If you were notified they would only do so after the suspect is in custody and only to issue a mall wide trespass warning. I have worked with mall security in the past and since most malls are owned by national companies the policies are the same. I have yet to see a mall that allows its officers to "knowingly engage in physical altercations" with its customers. By having its security officers respond to fights and attempt to control the fight or act of violence; the officers, security company, and mall all put themselves up for some serious liability. Likewise, I have yet to see a mall allow its officers to carry any type of weapon, even pepper spray is not allowed. Because both mall security and store security are contract, they are held to the same legal standards which means store security has the same authoity as you do. There is no I'm mall security so I outrank the store security. You are both on the same level with the same authority. Now the flipside to this is the loss prevention guys. They are proprietary and are employees of the store. They have the right to use whatever force is legal and permitted by the store to apprehend criminals. LP can and sometimes does override the mall security. As I have said I have worked with several malls in the past and these are my observations.
                  This is where I appreciate difference in mindset for operations.

                  I believe you may have read into what I have said as a level of upscaling another agency, when that is not the case, or perhaps I may have not clarified the situation or our standing in these issues.

                  It is not a matter of who "overrides" who when it comes to these issues. My point being that when a specific store has contracted their own security contract agancy, in which they have an "observe and report" only system, or "Procedures", it is difficult for the store, which may be part of another corporation and the decision of which contracted aganecy they have, to get a proactive solution to a re-occuring problem. No store values loss to theft or negligence, and I am not saying any other security agency is the cause of this, but only stating that a "Re-Active" approach to an issue (which I stated in another forum thread) is the not the direction we take.

                  As to speak of our Department, it is not "wannabe cops". I can guarentee that almost all of my staff does not desire to ever become law enforcement, as this is not what they are geared towards, for their own independant reasons. We are not interested in any way, to go out and nit pick ever issue at hand, or to become over zealous and display any image of "authority" as a means to resolution. What my department has in the way of deisres, are that of my own, which is shared by not only my department, the mall management, and the stores within our mall, is that having taken over this mall which was in shambles of disarray, is that this being a Private Property, and not for the exclusive use and abuse of criminal elements, we are all tired of the consistant effects of such criminal activity. We do not look to go out and enforce any city, state, or federal laws like that of law enforcement, we do not issue citations, we do not go around conducting DUI checkpoints or speedtraps, and we surely do not go stepping on people just for personal vendetas or gains.

                  We, like all the areas above that were mentioned, are only interested in making our mall the absolute safest mall, and provide the best shopping atmoshere. That is our top goal! Our secondary goals, fall to the stores and local law enforcement. We want every store to be successfull in their goals, and we help out our law enforcement department with information obtained to their interest. It called "liazonship" which is something that should not be overlooked, as you scratch one back and yours will be scratched back!

                  As for the Proprietary Security issue, this is what we are, as our corporation is a sister corporation to the corporation that owns these malls. My actual corporation has been bought out by the owners of these malls. Even at this, if one wants to take away this issue, a Security Agency contracted to any land owner, is the "Sole Proprieter" of that property, which is working in the interest and responsibilities of the land owner. Also remember, the term "Security" derrives from "Safety". As Security, we must adhere to and ensure the Safety of our interests, to include the clients.

                  Some areas, rarely discussed, as it is not that it maintain no importance, but seems to be an everyday task which is overlooked is Safety, and how it iis percieved. I can see that both you and me percieve Safety differently. You see a Security Officer running into a situation in which a fight is occurring, and engaging this matter as a Liability and Safety violation, where as I see that when a fight occurs, and you stand idley by hoping for a fast response from an outside entity such as the Police, and no action is taken by the Security Officer, that is a liability and safety violation. I am realistic in that I understand that most police departments are understaffed and overworked. I do not stand around and complain that it took more than 10 minutes for a Police Officer to arrive at the scene of a fight, as I understand they have many more people to tend to and they want to get to my location "safely".In this, can we afford to stand around with our hands in our pockets after we call the police and watch two or more subjets club eachother to the point of maiming or death? Can we stand by and observe other innocent shoppers getting knocked over because of the two parties fighting? Or do we stand there and watch the fight go on until one of the parties is beaten to the point of submission and suffers from serious injuries, then offer first aid when it is over? Or is that even a good idea, as we may be mistakenly perceived as "Paramedics" or "Medical Staff", and we can put anyone back together?

                  I observe your point to be that we (speaking only of my department) are attempting to become something we are not, when in fact we are operating within all laws, statutes, rules, regulations, safety guidelines, and personal safety awareness, all the while maintaining the best service possible, that is spoken by terms of contracts and by what is unspoken by all images and expectations, but become spoken when we allow something we are charged with as a responsibility to deal with, such as safety, but instead maintained a distance at which we took no reasonable action to prevent, which under Tort law, is Neglagence (sp).

                  I dont want anyone to get the wrong idea here, but better yet, the right idea. Yes, we as Security personnel and leaders, should get our hands on the best training out there today, impliment the safest procedures for our people, continue to train regularly as to keep fresh in mind what we can do, and give our clients not only the basics of provisions, but the best of service. This will not only ensure "job security", but also give us a means to which we go home every night proud that we did all that we could to provide the safest environment at our sites, and make the client happy.
                  Deputy Sheriff

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    I'm not going to get into any of these points, but I will say this...

                    1. Mall Director probably works for Valor, if he hasn't said so. I have seen, for a fact, that Valor Security arms their employees with everything but a gun. If the mall wants observe and report, they call IPC.

                    2. I have had police dispatchers call my dispatching officer to ask us to respond to police calls for service before. Either it was minor and they police were tied up, or the police did not have the manpower to adequately respond and they knew we were present on property. In other words, they dispatched a private security guard(!) as the officer's backup.
                    Some Kind of Commando Leader

                    "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
                      I'm not going to get into any of these points, but I will say this...

                      2. I have had police dispatchers call my dispatching officer to ask us to respond to police calls for service before. Either it was minor and they police were tied up, or the police did not have the manpower to adequately respond and they knew we were present on property. In other words, they dispatched a private security guard(!) as the officer's backup.
                      Wow-that would never happen here in Montreal. The Police union is KING! Montreal Police will no longer come to a hotel for a simple theft if there is no possibility for arresting someone. The person is expected to go to the police station & fill out a "Citizen's Report". They are given a copy with an event # that they can give to their insurance. The Neighbourhood Police stations are not near the hotels. At my 2 hotels by the airport we were able to get the police to give us copies or these Citizen Reports. We have the guest fill them out then we fax them to the police station. An Officer adds an event # & faxes it back.

                      We tried to set up the same system at the downtown hotel. No way! The union would not agree to it.
                      I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
                      Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Heh. Keep in mind, where this was, there are no police unions of any power, and the Sheriff had noted his deputies will answer any call for service.
                        Some Kind of Commando Leader

                        "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by HotelSecurity
                          Wow-that would never happen here in Montreal. The Police union is KING! Montreal Police will no longer come to a hotel for a simple theft if there is no possibility for arresting someone. The person is expected to go to the police station & fill out a "Citizen's Report". They are given a copy with an event # that they can give to their insurance. The Neighbourhood Police stations are not near the hotels. At my 2 hotels by the airport we were able to get the police to give us copies or these Citizen Reports. We have the guest fill them out then we fax them to the police station. An Officer adds an event # & faxes it back.

                          We tried to set up the same system at the downtown hotel. No way! The union would not agree to it.
                          Thats rough, and I truelly sympathize with you! I wish there was some way of getting your Police Department to cooperate quite a bit more with you. I dont find it amusing in the slightest when you are given the help you need and should have in order to provide even the basics of service. Of course, you are in Canada, and to be very honest, I havent a clue as to the police operations in this country. I know each country is different, as I have visited many and found I love the "American" style law enforcement, LOL!

                          We had to give our police department a "Sub-Station" to help persued them with our problems.
                          Deputy Sheriff

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Mall Director
                            ....

                            We had to give our police department a "Sub-Station" to help persued them with our problems.
                            Don't forget to throw in a Dunkin' Donuts too.
                            Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              So free Panda Express isnt enough? LOL!
                              Deputy Sheriff

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Cooperation levels completely depend on the agency. Tonight, at a church festival, I saw one unarmed security policeman (That's his title, it's not a sworn position any more than private police officer is in WI) with absolutely nothing - not even a flashlight or a pen.

                                His entire job was to roam around for the festival. His uniform looked straight out of the budget bin of Quartermasters. He was wearing the generic Lion badge that said "Security Police." And he was not wearing a nameplate in accordance with WI statute. That was the security. I would observe him roaming from area to area, buying tickets with cash, then buying a soda or a water. He had no method of communications, either.

                                Then, I noticed some rather large biker dudes with duty rigs and body armor under their Harley muscle shirts. These were the real security, Kenosha Police Officers. I deduced they were police officers only because they had their badges hanging on their neck, and KPD uses a Honololu Style badge, its very distinctive.

                                Why hire a security company when you have police officers? Uniformed presence? Why have police officers looking like bikers with guns if you wanted that?

                                The cops made a point not to go near where the security person was, and the security person would wander away from any area where the cops conregated. They moved as a group of 5 at all times.
                                Some Kind of Commando Leader

                                "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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