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  • Police Demand for Visitor Log Books

    I thought this was interesting:

    http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59658
    Retail Security Consultant / Expert Witness
    Co-Author - Effective Security Management 6th Edition

    Contributor to Retail Crime, Security and Loss Prevention: An Encyclopedic Reference

  • #2
    Wow. clearly NYPD Detectives. Those log books were clearly private property and if the owner of the log books didn't want to share the information contained therein, then the Detectives would need to get a warrant. There were certainly no exigent circumstances present since they wanted to see log books from a day in the past.
    Washington DC

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    • #3
      Wow! Aren't those the kind of actions that end up with a bunch of disallowed evidence due to technicalities? What are the chances that if they had just been nice and respectful they would have gotten all the information they needed? I wonder if they had camera's in the lobby, watching over that area?

      Those are the guys that give cops a bad rep.
      sigpic
      Rocket Science
      Making everything else look simple, since 1958.


      http://my.opera.com/integrator/blog/
      One Man's Opinion

      The Future. It isn't what it used to be.

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      • #4
        Always mindful that such threads might omit some critical detail that would change my opinion, there certainly appears to have been significant misconduct and abuse of authority by these detectives.
        "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

        "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

        "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

        "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

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        • #5
          Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
          Always mindful that such threads might omit some critical detail that would change my opinion, there certainly appears to have been significant misconduct and abuse of authority by these detectives.
          I agree, these threads are many times one sided.

          MJW - the poster does not say if it was NYPD or not. Friday I was in your jurisdiction, on a professional matter, and found the conduct by an Officer to be very similar to what the poster wrote. I think it can happen anywhere.
          Retail Security Consultant / Expert Witness
          Co-Author - Effective Security Management 6th Edition

          Contributor to Retail Crime, Security and Loss Prevention: An Encyclopedic Reference

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          • #6
            Curt, SecTrainer, MJ this is why enlightened leadership, committed supervision and training are crucial in both security and law enforcement. For those of you not familar with Prince William County Virginia Police Chief Charlie Deane, you are missing a true professional teacher at work with his force. A supervisor or line officer may have someone in civilian clothing, suit and tie show up at a scene to observe. There was one occasion where a rookie approached this neatly dressed gentlemen, crudely and obscenely asked Deane what he was doing there. Deane identified himself and requested the presence of the officer's supervisor. The rookie resigned and the supervisor and Deane had a heart-to-heart chat!
            Excesses noted in one department are discussed at briefings and men and women are told they would have new jobs elsewhere in the world should they engage in such behavior.
            The men and women on this County's force are not afraid to do their jobs, they just do it in a professional and courteous manner.
            In the sheriff's academy, we were taught to be civil, Deane insists on both civil and courtly behavior.
            Again, leadership, supervision and training have meaning.
            Gentlemen, I would bet motion to suppress would be granted.
            These folks were just plain stupid or badge heavy or both.
            Enjoy the day,
            Bill

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Curtis Baillie View Post
              Friday I was in your jurisdiction, on a professional matter, and found the conduct by an Officer to be very similar to what the poster wrote. I think it can happen anywhere.
              Yeah, I will admit the Government of the District of Columbia employs some of the rudest and crudest police officers in the nation. Most of the problem children came on board in the 80's and 90's during the Marion Barry years and are all approaching their retirement.

              Professionalism has increased dramatically amongst the officers who have come on board in the past 5 years. Although I do agree that such behavior and conduct can and does occur everywhere.
              Washington DC

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              • #8
                Some places require hotels to provide the police with details of who is or was registered in an hotel.

                It is important when dealing with the police to make sure that they are in fact police. I have had cases where private investigators working for insurance companies have come to the hotel, tell management they are "Investigators" or "Detectives" & asked to see information they were not entilted to see.
                I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
                Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by HotelSecurity View Post
                  Some places require hotels to provide the police with details of who is or was registered in an hotel.

                  It is important when dealing with the police to make sure that they are in fact police. I have had cases where private investigators working for insurance companies have come to the hotel, tell management they are "Investigators" or "Detectives" & asked to see information they were not entilted to see.
                  Both good points, and the requirement for hotels might be a reasonable exception, but here we're talking about a private company. No one should be forced to believe that their visit to a private company is subject to the whimsical scrutiny of the police without judicial oversight. For situations that demand such information, even in an urgent situation, we have means by which the police can rapidly obtain search warrants.
                  "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                  "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                  "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                  "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

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                  • #10
                    There could have been reasons not mentioned ,or told to the SO ,that could have warranted such actions. There is not enough information in the post to judge if exigent circumstances existed ,there could have been events happening at the immediate time that facilitated the actions of the Detectives. I would venture to guess it was an urgent situation for Detectives to step that much into the danger zone to get the info needed. hence the none of your business response.
                    Last edited by stangtattoo; 10-09-2008, 07:43 PM. Reason: 1

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by stangtattoo View Post
                      There could have been reasons not mentioned ,or told to the SO ,that could have warranted such actions. There is not enough information in the post to judge if exigent circumstances existed ,there could have been events happening at the immediate time that facilitated the actions of the Detectives. I would venture to guess it was an urgent situation for Detectives to step that much into the danger zone to get the info needed. hence the none of your business response.
                      No way. There is no way EXIGENT CIRCUMSTANCES existed that warranted the 4th Amendment to the United States Constitution to be trampled on.

                      If a life was in immediate danger ok ... or even if the Detectives could articulate how someone's life was in jeopardy, but clearly that is not the case here.

                      This was typical heavy handed tactics that many cops use on people they know or at least feel like they can get away with it on.
                      Washington DC

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                      • #12
                        This is why you must always be a good witness. Detailed descriptions and a license number would when filing a complaint with the city/state (since he was unable to get their names/badge#). When it comes to witnessing/reporting an incident, always be on your game, whether the perpetrators are wearing dew-rags or campaign hats. And never resist the police outside of court.
                        "A good deed’s like pissing yourself in dark pants. Warm feeling but no one notices." - Jacob Taylor

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                        • #13
                          Maybe they weren't cops...
                          I believe I speak for everyone here sir, when I say, to Hell with our orders.
                          -Lieutenant Commander Data
                          sigpic

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by mjw064 View Post
                            No way. There is no way EXIGENT CIRCUMSTANCES existed that warranted the 4th Amendment to the United States Constitution to be trampled on.

                            If a life was in immediate danger ok ... or even if the Detectives could articulate how someone's life was in jeopardy, but clearly that is not the case here.

                            This was typical heavy handed tactics that many cops use on people they know or at least feel like they can get away with it on.
                            +1. I think it highly unlikely that there were exigent circumstances, but if so they should have been articulated to the SO and his supervisor. Either these weren't cops at all, or they were very BAD cops. A call should have been placed to the precinct watch commander immediately, followed by a formal complaint.
                            "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                            "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                            "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                            "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

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                            • #15
                              Maybe it's because I'm a little under the weather, but did these "cops" show any ID..? I don't recall seeing that
                              ~Super Ninja Sniper~
                              Corbier's Commandos

                              Nemo me impune lacessit

                              Grammical and Spelling errors may occur form time to time. Yoov bin worned

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