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  • #31
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
    There can be a formal warrantless arrest, made by an agent of the state, or a "citizen's arrest," which is where a person takes an offender into custody to bring them (in medieval England) before the magistrate, and now days to the police who then forward them to the magistrate.

    "Arrest" and "Detention" are a game of semantics once it gets to the court. A good rule of thumb is every detention that is not codified in law (which is usually codified as an arrest) is an arrest.

    However, how is requesting identification a detention? And, is it the suspect's thought, or is there a reasonable man threshold for "detainment" in Washington? A reasonable man believes that if a security guard asks for ID, and he gives it, that he can ask for it back and then leave of his own free will. Only when the guard or police officer refuses to return the ID is there a detention, to my understanding.

    One thing to note, however, is that the usual "stop and frisk" laws do not apply to private citizens, so we cannot detain for investigative detention purposes like a LEO can. But, we can ask alot more questions than a LEO can, because we're not detaining - we're simply engaging in conversation.
    The idea of having a person's identification being detention in the state of Washington goes down to their definition of "restraint". The definition includes "threat of force" and "deception" to be methods of restraint, so simply standing around and looking threatening to some bystander can be considered restraint. Also, engaging in conversation one would consider to be designed to keep a person there, even though that may not be the intent, would be using "deception" to restrain.

    The fundamental difference between arrest and detention, to my understanding, is that detention is an act of holding. There are two major areas of detention as defined by federal law, forcible detainer and non-forcible detainer. The definition of arrest is defined by each state's law and is not dependent on English common law, nor does it really have anything to do with it; however, it does have to comply with the Fourth Amendment of the United States Constitution. According to this, a person who is not a governmental agent normally only has the power of search and seizure for what is in plain view, according to what is considered to be "reasonable".
    Since Washington does not have a private person arrest, the only power of detention a security officer has is the use of force for self defense.
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitut...lofrights.html

    The application of Terry vs Ohio to a private person is also subjective to the state's definition of what force a person may use. In my state, for example, I can get away with doing a pat down of a suspect if I reasonably believe he is going to act violent or has a weapon since Chapter 9 of our Penal Code outlines the use of non-deadly force and deadly force to prevent acts of injury such as assault etc. with no duty to retreat before using force. However, since I'm not sure Washington has such broad authority for citizens, I'm assuming they don't, such a pat down would be considered unlawful imprisonment there.
    "We appreciate all the hard work you've done, the dedicated hours you have worked, and the lives you have saved. However, since this is your third time being late to work, we are terminating your employment here."

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    • #32
      Actually, from what I always learned, WA does have a "citizens arrest". In which a citizen may detain someone for the commission of a felony in their view or on.... I forget the term.... but lets say my partner is entering a room, Im hanging outside the door, my partner sees some guy bashing in another persons head with a hammer, when the guy sees my partner he bolts. My partner goes to the aid of the victim and advises me to attempt an apprehension. I forget the legal eagle term of this... I think its like a "good faith" or something like that. Basically, even though I didnt witness the act myself, I have, on good faith that my witnessed a felony, I can make a detention on that basis. (With this, you are walking a VERY fine line in Washington, and I dont advise anyone to make a "citizens arrest" on this basis.)

      Merchants in Washington State are also given the authority to appoint an agent of the store to apprehend and detain persons for crimes against the property (and I believe people) of the merchant.

      I havent studied any of this for a long time... maybe it is time for me to look into it again.
      "Alright guys listen up, ya'll have probably heard this before, Jackson vs. Securiplex corporation; I am a private security officer, I have no State or governmental authority. I stand as an ordinary citizen. I have no right to; detain, interrogate or otherwise interfere with your personal property-... basically all that means is I'm a cop."-Officer Ernie
      "The Curve" 1998

      Comment


      • #33
        With that, in Washington we can conduct a search under two conditions:

        1) With consent of the searched, i.e. "Hey can I pat you down real quick?" or as an entry/exit screening, such as at a concert, air/seaport, courthouse screening, etc...

        2) After the guard effects a citizens arrest.
        "Alright guys listen up, ya'll have probably heard this before, Jackson vs. Securiplex corporation; I am a private security officer, I have no State or governmental authority. I stand as an ordinary citizen. I have no right to; detain, interrogate or otherwise interfere with your personal property-... basically all that means is I'm a cop."-Officer Ernie
        "The Curve" 1998

        Comment


        • #34
          Heres the RCW. From what I see it mentions "public officer" when referring to police. But it appears this is the RCW that applies to the general public and security as it says "person" instead of "officer" or "agent" etc...

          RCW 9A.16.020
          Use of force
          "Alright guys listen up, ya'll have probably heard this before, Jackson vs. Securiplex corporation; I am a private security officer, I have no State or governmental authority. I stand as an ordinary citizen. I have no right to; detain, interrogate or otherwise interfere with your personal property-... basically all that means is I'm a cop."-Officer Ernie
          "The Curve" 1998

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Wackenhut Lawson
            Actually, from what I always learned, WA does have a "citizens arrest". In which a citizen may detain someone for the commission of a felony in their view or on.... I forget the term.... but lets say my partner is entering a room, Im hanging outside the door, my partner sees some guy bashing in another persons head with a hammer, when the guy sees my partner he bolts. My partner goes to the aid of the victim and advises me to attempt an apprehension. I forget the legal eagle term of this... I think its like a "good faith" or something like that. Basically, even though I didnt witness the act myself, I have, on good faith that my witnessed a felony, I can make a detention on that basis. (With this, you are walking a VERY fine line in Washington, and I dont advise anyone to make a "citizens arrest" on this basis.)

            Merchants in Washington State are also given the authority to appoint an agent of the store to apprehend and detain persons for crimes against the property (and I believe people) of the merchant.

            I havent studied any of this for a long time... maybe it is time for me to look into it again.
            Right, but that form of detention is not arrest, it is use of force (paraphrasing) to prevent the consequences of a violent act or of theft, which is covered under separate statutes. This may include handcuffing, but according to what I saw, you have to have witnessed everything and it has to be perfect or they'll hang you out to dry.
            "We appreciate all the hard work you've done, the dedicated hours you have worked, and the lives you have saved. However, since this is your third time being late to work, we are terminating your employment here."

            Comment


            • #36
              Im trying to post the RCW, but it is not posting the whole thing...

              http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.020

              here it is anyway.
              "Alright guys listen up, ya'll have probably heard this before, Jackson vs. Securiplex corporation; I am a private security officer, I have no State or governmental authority. I stand as an ordinary citizen. I have no right to; detain, interrogate or otherwise interfere with your personal property-... basically all that means is I'm a cop."-Officer Ernie
              "The Curve" 1998

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Wackenhut Lawson
                Actually, from what I always learned, WA does have a "citizens arrest". In which a citizen may detain someone for the commission of a felony in their view or on.... I forget the term.... but lets say my partner is entering a room, Im hanging outside the door, my partner sees some guy bashing in another persons head with a hammer, when the guy sees my partner he bolts. My partner goes to the aid of the victim and advises me to attempt an apprehension. I forget the legal eagle term of this... I think its like a "good faith" or something like that. Basically, even though I didnt witness the act myself, I have, on good faith that my witnessed a felony, I can make a detention on that basis. (With this, you are walking a VERY fine line in Washington, and I dont advise anyone to make a "citizens arrest" on this basis.)

                Merchants in Washington State are also given the authority to appoint an agent of the store to apprehend and detain persons for crimes against the property (and I believe people) of the merchant.

                I havent studied any of this for a long time... maybe it is time for me to look into it again.
                Ah wait a second, you're correct.
                http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.020
                That covers "arrest" for felony, pursuant to delivery to a public officer (police or magistrate), force to protect a person, and non-forcible detention for trespass.
                According to the section for trespass, the checking of id was completely appropriate.
                "We appreciate all the hard work you've done, the dedicated hours you have worked, and the lives you have saved. However, since this is your third time being late to work, we are terminating your employment here."

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by 1stWatch
                  Ah wait a second, you're correct.
                  I am? Thats a first.
                  "Alright guys listen up, ya'll have probably heard this before, Jackson vs. Securiplex corporation; I am a private security officer, I have no State or governmental authority. I stand as an ordinary citizen. I have no right to; detain, interrogate or otherwise interfere with your personal property-... basically all that means is I'm a cop."-Officer Ernie
                  "The Curve" 1998

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    First off, let me say to Jake that I in no way think you did anything wrong. Infact you acted very professionaly it appears. You are a victim of the greedy b***h and the state. Don't take it lying down, fight back as much as you can. Remember this state does not respect its citizens, only the money generated and our laws show that. Good luck to you Jake, and if you feel like it submit an application for Boeing

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Wackenhut Lawson
                      I am? Thats a first.
                      Don't put yourself through a period of low self esteem now.
                      "We appreciate all the hard work you've done, the dedicated hours you have worked, and the lives you have saved. However, since this is your third time being late to work, we are terminating your employment here."

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        hahaha... no worries here
                        "Alright guys listen up, ya'll have probably heard this before, Jackson vs. Securiplex corporation; I am a private security officer, I have no State or governmental authority. I stand as an ordinary citizen. I have no right to; detain, interrogate or otherwise interfere with your personal property-... basically all that means is I'm a cop."-Officer Ernie
                        "The Curve" 1998

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
                          I have to ask, what's a "Notice of Allegation?" I take it that your state is not "at-will" and they have to serve you with a formal reason before terminating you, and have a "hearing" and all that, with the union rep present?
                          Many employers want a paper trail of the actions taken up to and including the termination, even if the state has an 'at will' law. It's just one more step to protect them from a lawsuit.

                          Sadly, if this company does fire Jake, the woman will simply be encouraged to do it again.
                          Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            As for Jake, this definately sounds like a company you will want to drop out of. If you need help finding another company, drop me a private message with any specifics or details, such as work enviornment, pay rates, location, etc... and I will see if I can dig anything up for ya.
                            "Alright guys listen up, ya'll have probably heard this before, Jackson vs. Securiplex corporation; I am a private security officer, I have no State or governmental authority. I stand as an ordinary citizen. I have no right to; detain, interrogate or otherwise interfere with your personal property-... basically all that means is I'm a cop."-Officer Ernie
                            "The Curve" 1998

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Michael Ledgerwood
                              First off, let me say to Jake that I in no way think you did anything wrong. Infact you acted very professionaly it appears. You are a victim of the greedy b***h and the state. Don't take it lying down, fight back as much as you can. Remember this state does not respect its citizens, only the money generated and our laws show that. Good luck to you Jake, and if you feel like it submit an application for Boeing
                              I have admired Boeing Security for quite a while...they are obviously better trained, well paid, secure, and have access to better equipment...their company is a serious one, not a joke.

                              I heard they were hiring recently, but I have not found a way to submit an application, no information on a web site, etc. Is there a contact number you can PM me with?

                              One other thing they did was remove my Armed Guard License from me this morning, over another unrelated incident. (A site officer was standing near my gun locker while I was right there preparing for work. He appeared to reach into it and touch my personal weapon, and I reported this to HR.) They described my not securing the locker as a "woeful breach of safety" even though I was in the immediate vicinity, with my hand inches from the locker.
                              Last edited by jakeslife; 03-17-2006, 12:03 AM.
                              Liability is never above officer safety. Do what you must to make sure you go home safe.

                              William-2, 10-6 for 105. Yep, I'm at Starbucks!

                              I may be gay, but I'll eff you up!

                              Personal Web Site

                              Cheap, Quality Web Design! Put a great cop on the beat by helping with my tuition! :-D

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by 1stWatch
                                Don't put yourself through a period of low self esteem now.
                                This is hard to do. I not only work full time, but go to school full time, freelance web design, and sleep for a few hours a day. I am paying most of my own way through school, and have considered withdrawing in case I need that extra $300 a month, which would come in handy...this is not an option for the strong "me" though.

                                I know that I did not do anything wrong. Everyone who has seen my NOA and reports on the matter are on my side, save for those who wrote the NOA. In fact, I would be willing to provide this documentation to a future employer who questions the situation.
                                Liability is never above officer safety. Do what you must to make sure you go home safe.

                                William-2, 10-6 for 105. Yep, I'm at Starbucks!

                                I may be gay, but I'll eff you up!

                                Personal Web Site

                                Cheap, Quality Web Design! Put a great cop on the beat by helping with my tuition! :-D

                                Comment

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