Hypothetical Scenario - Need opinions

[Tennsix]

Ha Ha ......... no `Dad` I was born just before Armstrong landed on the moon and grew up on the Bionic Man and SWAT. I thought Deke was a cool dude back then !!

That's old enough for gray hair, baldness, and knee pain.

[NRM_Oz]

No, I probably looked just like you. Except you probably were not born yet.

Ha Ha ......... no `Dad` I was born just before Armstrong landed on the moon and grew up on the Bionic Man and SWAT. I thought Deke was a cool dude back then !!

[Justice_Hound]

We should have a forum for just former 'Liquor Agents' (just kidding) - I was one in Ohio (70s). In Ohio, when I made an arrest in a bar, I often found myself out-guned.

Darkenna - I read your comment, with interest, of Liquor Agents and your experience with them.

Tell me about it, when we traveled in to the more rural bush areas of my great state we had to watch ourselves pretty well. Interdicting alcohol smugglers running booze into dry villages along the Yukon river was one of the scariest situations that we ran into. Pretty much EVERYONE in the bush is packing heat so we definately geared up for war Lucky for us, most of the time the Troopers backed us up with patrol officers or their SERT team.

I definately didn't get payed enough in that job.

Justice_Hound
LP Manager

[craig333]

I thought you said you worked a construction site in the flashlight thread?

I work multiple posts. Part of the reason I can't wait to tell my current employer to kiss off. Had an interview today that went well.

[darkenna]

Glad to hear it; I wouldn't want my shining image of you and those others I look up to tarnished by something like that.

The LC in NH is usually used as the second step between intro investigative work, like LP, and getting on full-time with a police force in the state. Most of the Investigators are young, proud, arrogant, and still have that "I just graduated from a police academy" sheen to them. It's that new-found feeling of authority and power, and it's heady. And, just like in LP, most of them don't stay around long enough to develop that calmer experienced nature. More's the pity; most of the ones I've run across are damned fine investigators, and would be much more effective if they learned to be a little more diplomatic.

Up here, a beverage/wine/liquor license is actually owned by the state, which gives them a sort of partial-interest in any business which has one. As the state does not need a warrant to look into and inspect matters within its own house, it does not need one to look into and inspect matters in any business with such a license. It actually states so on the the license itself. It's an interesting arrangement which gives the LC the authority of acting under an open-ended search warrant anytime they step into a licensed premises.

[Curtis Baillie]

I'm happy to say that I never conducted myself like that in my time as a Police Officer, Liquor Agent, or in any other profession. I was the one, when entering a heated situation, that was the calming effect. No need or purpose to act differently. You are right about the enormous powers given to a liquor agents - but no need to act like you have it. The powers of arrest, as you described, were the same as in Ohio. Plus we did not need to get search warrants.

[darkenna]

Ah, the State Liquor Commission...

Curt, I've had the very good fortune of being on great terms with my local Liquor Commissioners, who have never found fault with the way my teams operate and absolutely adore my Bar Security SOP leaflet. But I have been present many times when they thought they found something questionable and tore into it like a rabid rottweiller. Very, very thorough people, and more than willing to take the time to examine every minute detail they can find. Great investigators; but also always 100% convinced they are going to find something illegal or not up to code, and never really happy when they don't. I've actually been threatened with arrest by an LC when he didn't find what had been reported was going on in my bar (which wasn't actually going on), because he was irritated that it wasn't and was damned if he wasn't going to make sure I knew how powerful he was. It's a unique situation; Commissioners are Peace Officers in this state, but are limited to where their powers apply. On the street, they have limited authority unless they suspect alcohol is involved in an instance. You get one inside a bar or on State Liquor Store property, or anywhere else where alcohol is stored/made/sold/used, however, and they are virtually gods.

[Curtis Baillie]

No, I probably looked just like you. Except you probably were not born yet.

[NRM_Oz]

Did you have a covert look of the chocolate brown velvet suit with the compulsory Afro and sideburns ? More gold chains than Bevilles ?

Zero alcohol for anyone with a firearm and security is zero alcohol as well.

[Curtis Baillie]

As a former Alcoholic Beverage Enforcement Investigator in Alaska I can assure you that a security guard employed by a Bar can legally carry on a lic. premises, if the guard does not consume any alcoholic beverages.

Alaska Statute 11.61.220 states that it is a defense if the defendant, at the time of the possession (of the firearm), was on business premises-
(A) Owned by or lease by the defendant; or
(B) In the course of the defendant's employment for the owner or lessee of the premises.

I know of at least 4 seperate Bars/nightclubs in Anchorage and Fairbanks that have armed concealed carry security officers.

We should have a forum for just former 'Liquor Agents' (just kidding) - I was one in Ohio (70s). In Ohio, when I made an arrest in a bar, I often found myself out-guned.

Darkenna - I read your comment, with interest, of Liquor Agents and your experience with them.

[Maelstrom]

Gotta get ready for my casino shift where I'm unarmed.

I thought you said you worked a construction site in the flashlight thread?

[gixxer32404]

LOL u could disengage and call the police. B/c human life is held on the highest pedestral. Ie: last resort..



When I was a co I was accidentally sprayed more times in the jail, than at the Academy. Therefore, What's wrong w/using oc spray inside?? I don't remember any don'ts or know any case laws pertaining to such.But that has came up twice recently. Just curious. I feel pretty much immune, and could spray myself.But I have a habit of eating nuclear chicken wings,or 911 suce, or 3 mile at hooters.hell,I'll sweat just eating it. any input,appreciated. but please don't say quit eating buffalo wings,not an option,lol.

[Justice_Hound]

It's illegal to carry in a bar, a guard is just a citizen who has been empowered by the contracting element to enforce their own rules on their property, observe and report violations, and intervene if necessitated.

Having been said, my training from my work, my training in the military, and state law would back me up when I chose to deploy my sidearm.

But, in this state lethal force doesn't HAVE to involve a weapon discharge, I'd go to guns because we're taught enter at, or above, the level of force you are encountering. It depends on the situation.

Granted, mr budweiser shank would only have about one second if that to comply with verbal instruction.

But, I guess the training we go over time and time again doesn't have any merit.

My boss expects me to be around to collect another paycheck until they get tired of me. I intend on being around to collect that paycheck until Someone's tired of someone, and I ain't tired of nothin yet.

As a former Alcoholic Beverage Enforcement Investigator in Alaska I can assure you that a security guard employed by a Bar can legally carry on a lic. premises, if the guard does not consume any alcoholic beverages.

Alaska Statute 11.61.220 states that it is a defense if the defendant, at the time of the possession (of the firearm), was on business premises-
(A) Owned by or lease by the defendant; or
(B) In the course of the defendant's employment for the owner or lessee of the premises.

I know of at least 4 seperate Bars/nightclubs in Anchorage and Fairbanks that have armed concealed carry security officers.

[Black Caesar]

We also have to do "Bob has $30.00 and lends Leroy $23.00 and buys lunch for $7.00 from Moe - how much does Bob have left ?" questions.

???

*Takes of shoes and socks (easier to count toes that way)*

Damn it.

*Breaks out calculator*

Double Damn it.

So much for that whole "moving to Australia" plan I was making...

[craig333]

Wow, took a while to get through all that. Straight out the training handbook. When can I use deadly force.

1. When my life or
2. Another's life
3. Is in IMMEDIATE Jeopardy or danger
4. All else will or may fail
5. It is a last resort
6. No innocent life is in danger from your actions

Number six being the one I need to be concerned about here, since cleary I can draw my weapon in the circumstances described.

I need to clear my field of fire. My best option is to retreat outside. If he doesn't follow me or threatens other patrons I may have no option but to fire.

I certainly see both points of view here and it bothers me some people can't entertain other viewpoints. We all want to go home at the end of the shift and no one wants to take an innocent life.

Remove the bar from this situation and its easy. But we're in a bar and that does present factors that need to be taken into consideration. You stand a very very good chance of someone bumping into you. This isn't a wild west situation where everyone suddenly jumps up and clears out for you. You will have innocent people in your field of fire. Lets hope your training comes through and you don't miss. Of course we've all seen the youtube vids of LEO's emptying their weapons and point blank range and missing.

Gotta get ready for my casino shift where I'm unarmed. Makes my choice real easy. I bail and call the cops. Funny thing about this place is, on friday nights and every other saturday night they an LEO on duty. Rest of the time its unarmed security.