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  • #46
    Hypothetical Scenario - Need opinions

    I just have one question. Why is a m26 or m18 on the list of tool to use? They would be best tool use in this scenario.
    CAPTAIN KOOLAID 9594


    oh ya

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    • #47
      Originally posted by NRM_Oz View Post
      There is no perfect answer ............. as every scenario is different.
      That's the truth, but thats also why you fall back on your training. train, train, train some more and when you get tired of training, keep training.

      One of the problems in this thrread is it has a bad case of "Tactical Overthink" going on. You don't "think" in a fight, you fight, thats why you need training to make your actions second nature. I got very very little training in private security until i got to Wackenhut, the truth is I was lucky for YEARS.

      Sadly, some people think lucky = skilled. After these last few years, I now know this isn't true. Training is king, and the 1 (sometimes 2-3 weeks if you get your PPO and Baton/OC certs) S/Os get down here ain't cutting it.

      But the only thing worse than no training, is BAD training (like a guy I knew who owned a security company and his own "security training academy" who would teach people how to basically "sword fight" with Batons, and i'm not kidding, he used to be mayor of my home town and he's now out of business, thank God).

      The private security industry needs a revolution is you ask me...
      ~Black Caesar~
      Corbier's Commandos

      " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

      Comment


      • #48
        well, Gee whiz.

        Number one, every state has different laws on where and when you can carry a firearm.

        Number two, If the owner of the bar knows he is carrying a pistol, then he is allowing it for a reason.

        Number Three, this is a life and death situation. My law enforcement training says I can use deadly force, my security guard training says I can use deadly force.

        Number four, Um, My employer has given me NO training in the use of the club I carry, and they did not issue me any pepper spray. If you pull a bottle on me, my only reasonable recourse is the firearm.

        Number five, Thats why we go thru firearms training and have to qualify twice a year.

        I just requalified on Sunday with a 269 out of 300. and everything out to 7 yards was in the 10 zone. Why they make us shoot at 25 yards is beyond me and everyone else in the team. At 25 yards, my best weapon is probably my middle finger.

        Comment


        • #49
          Black Caesar there is never enough training. Elite units do it thousands of times over. Fire fighters and volunteer fire units spend hours rolling and unrolling hose drills and coupling up standpipes to get water. Rescue squads drill man down techniques as doe our elite military and LEO in fast roping, CQB and the like of hostage negotiators. I was fortunate that a former Ops Manager was an ex police negotiator who would drill us on scenarios and play the bad guy for fun.

          I still think weapon retention is a major issue as if you are working a club and suddenly see Johnny Agro with a broken bottle ready to MAYBE cut you, you may get into a struggle and find someone has taken your OC or baton or firearm and with these new high retention holsters anything is possible.

          Another scenario was when I worked the Aussie sporting matches and if you think of 12 hours of yobbo's drinking in 100f+ heat with nothing but beer and expensive crap food surrounded by other idiots sharing a brain. We used to have monthly scenario training of dealing with hostiles - even just talking and asking questions together with some drills with the police instructors. Never too much training in my books.

          Ha Ha Ha Kingsman I was going to say at 25yds it might be my boot soles.
          "Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer" Sun Tzu

          Comment


          • #50
            Then you need to avoid Texas as well, because MJW is right, public peace officer of private security officer, liabilty doesn't mean SQUAT if your are dead. All of my training (including level IV PPO and a police academy) agrees with MJW.
            You totally missed th epoint of what I said.

            Which begs the question. What formal training do you have Dougo?
            I won't even bother, it's been posted.


            if you're worried about getting sued or losing your job when someone is trying to kill you then you are, point blank, in the wrong line of work.
            Never said I was worried, slick, just said it's a risk that's involved.

            What the hell state are you talking about, because it ain't Texas. I have, time and again, posted links to articles of Texas SOs and other private citizens using deadly force (in situations that leave non-Texas SOs scratching their heads lol) with no ill consequences.
            What the hell I'm talking about is civil court. I'm sure you've heard of it. Here in Travis county those who uphold the law get screwed by the jud system. You may get off in a criminal case, but the FAMILY CAN STILL SUE YOU AND WILL IF THEY CAN FIND A LAWYER.

            And Texas LEOs "shooting 1st and asking questions later". Excuse me?
            Learn to read, never said anything about Texas LEO's. So, you're excused.



            This part is just silly. "Perp"? This isn't NYPD Blue...
            Really? Thanks. What's silly is saying 'mofo.' You sound like a dumba$$.




            You insist on digging yourself deeper huh. Well, I'm sorry, but you infinite lack of training is showing, either that, or the people who trained you didn't know what they were talking about.
            Please, for the love of God, stop taking my quotes out of context. He said his #1 is to save his own skin. If he's more concerned about that, he shouldn't be in any public safety field. The people under your guardianship are #1.



            i'm sorry to have to say this, Dougo, but the newb is you. You simply need more or better training, and I'm not trying to be mean here. What you've said here is some of the most freightening crap I've read in a long time, more so because you're in Texas, and your obvious misconceptions could lead you down a seriously disaterous path.
            Wait...because I don't think you should just shoot up a bar to stop a drunk, I'm a newb?

            Ok, if I need better training, pull up in TX law where it is a smart idea to shoot in a bar full of people. Or show me what trainer says that's a good plan. Also, if my training was so bad, I wouldn't be able to handle the situation without a firearm. Point is, a firearm is not an be-all end-all tool. It is serious stuff and people talk about shooting like they are taking out the trash or something. It's alot of talk and it's gonna get someone hurt.

            Comment


            • #51
              Woot, that's intelligent.

              Instead of understanding that you need more training, you lash out at me (and the half dozen other more experianced people here) who in this very thread have explained to you that you don't understand what you are talking about.

              Pure Brilliance.

              Your 1st post here back last june said you were "joining the ranks of Commisioned Security Guards here in Texas".. that was 9 flipping months ago, yet you feel confident enough to put 9 whole months of experiance against the decades worth of combined experiance for people across the spectrum of public safety here, peace officers, career private security professionals and ex-military folk.

              Jesus, I really wish I could be 24 again. Life was sooo much easier when I knew everything lol.

              But for real, it's your bodybag that's waiting for you, if you can't understand that you simply don't know enough yet, that's your problem (and a problem for the folks you should be protecting...).

              Oh well.
              ~Black Caesar~
              Corbier's Commandos

              " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by kingsman View Post
                My law enforcement training says I can use deadly force, my security guard training says I can use deadly force.
                The beauty of proper training right there.
                ~Black Caesar~
                Corbier's Commandos

                " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

                Comment


                • #53
                  Faced with a broken beer bottle, which is, without a doubt, an edged weapon, why would you rely on anything less than deadly force?
                  An edged weapon equals deadly force, why enter into a deadly force situation with anything less than deadly force? the 21 foot rule was already mentioned here, did any anti-shoot people even take notice of that? Do you even realize what the 21 foot rule is? google it, please.

                  No offence to anyone here but, if you think using OC spray against an assailant with an edged weapon is the right thing to do.... think again...
                  OC Spray doesn't take effect immediately, it takes a few seconds to actually hit you. Those 'few seconds' can cost you your life, if you are being rushed by a guy with a broken bottle. People can fight through OC, I did it, anyone who's been through a police academy has done it too. OC would be the absolute last tool I would use against an aggressive subject with an edged weapon.

                  Secondly, we've been trained to utilize firearms in every kind of situation, there is no way in hell I would ever hesitate to use my duty weapon against an aggressive guy with a broken bottle in a bar. I have to qual three times a year, and I shoot when I can on my off days, I have no problem whatsoever in taking that shot. Frankly, to meet deadly force with anything less than deadly force, is a deadly mistake.
                  If you are close enough to hit a knife weilding suspect with an asp, he's close enough to reach you.
                  If you are going to OC a knife weilding suspect, he's close enough to reach you.
                  If someone with an edged weapon is close enough to reach you.... you've got a problem.
                  Think about it, do the math, you are trained to take the shot, take it.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by dougo83 View Post
                    Please, for the love of God, stop taking my quotes out of context. He said his #1 is to save his own skin. If he's more concerned about that, he shouldn't be in any public safety field. The people under your guardianship are #1.
                    Except that if you have had any REAL training, you would know that for anyone in LEO work *OR* security, this is TRUE! Our #1 priority is to keep OURSELVES safe first! If we get hit or injured, then WHO is going to protect those other patrons from further attacks?? That's the whole point we're trying to make here! Yes, there's always a chance that someone else could get injured. Yes, there's always a chance you could get sued civilly, but that still doesn't take priority over SELF-PRESERVATION for the good of those around us! Do you not understand this concept or what?
                    Corbier's Commandos - "Stickin it to the ninjas!"
                    Originally posted by ValleyOne
                    BANG, next thing you know Bob's your Uncle and this Sgt is seemingly out on his a$$.
                    Shoulda called in sick.
                    Be safe!

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      lot of good points here, but a drunk with a broken bottle hardly constitutes use of deadly force. 1) u should be trained in self-defense, there are other ways to stop a raging bull than dropping him. 2) do u really wanna go home and hear about some father of 3 u just wasted because he was drunk and acting in a stupid way? not me. i have dealt with many aggressive people before, not as security, but as just a civilian in a bar. the sober, calm person has the advantage. sure, he may not ave the edged weapon, but he has a few things a drunk doesnt...coordination, balance, clear sight, and a clear head to think rationally. if u have ever been in a fist-fight, and know how to fight, then u should be ok. i understand people wanting to cover their own butts, but come on, killing a guy?? i would much rather have a few stitches than waste someone who may not even realise what they are doing. if u arent physically fit enough to tango with a angry drunk, u shouldnt be a bouncer in the first place. i have seen some run away when fights start, others grab whatever is near and start whacking away. but, it all falls back on your qualifications. are u trained to handle this situation?? are u physically fit eough to handle it?? the question may arise, what if the subject gains control of your weapon during a scuffle?? simple, remove your weapon then attack. i have never had any trouble disarming anyone so fa, of course i havent had a firearm rammed up my nose either, but i think a little more physical work would work better than killing someone out of their mind. if u are afraid of a little contact, then u shouldnt be in this game in the first place.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by nightguard View Post
                        lot of good points here, but a drunk with a broken bottle hardly constitutes use of deadly force. 1) u should be trained in self-defense, there are other ways to stop a raging bull than dropping him. 2) do u really wanna go home and hear about some father of 3 u just wasted because he was drunk and acting in a stupid way? not me. i have dealt with many aggressive people before, not as security, but as just a civilian in a bar. the sober, calm person has the advantage. sure, he may not ave the edged weapon, but he has a few things a drunk doesnt...coordination, balance, clear sight, and a clear head to think rationally. if u have ever been in a fist-fight, and know how to fight, then u should be ok. i understand people wanting to cover their own butts, but come on, killing a guy?? i would much rather have a few stitches than waste someone who may not even realise what they are doing. if u arent physically fit enough to tango with a angry drunk, u shouldnt be a bouncer in the first place. i have seen some run away when fights start, others grab whatever is near and start whacking away. but, it all falls back on your qualifications. are u trained to handle this situation?? are u physically fit eough to handle it?? the question may arise, what if the subject gains control of your weapon during a scuffle?? simple, remove your weapon then attack. i have never had any trouble disarming anyone so fa, of course i havent had a firearm rammed up my nose either, but i think a little more physical work would work better than killing someone out of their mind. if u are afraid of a little contact, then u shouldnt be in this game in the first place.

                        STOP THE THREAT.

                        Thats what I will do. I am not trying to kill him, just stopping the threat. If he dies, well so be it. He shouldn't have been playing games with the boys in blue.
                        Washington DC

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by mjw064 View Post
                          STOP THE THREAT.

                          Thats what I will do. I am not trying to kill him, just stopping the threat. If he dies, well so be it. He shouldn't have been playing games with the boys in blue.


                          point taken, but isnt it "protect and serve"? isnt it also his life u are supposed to protet and serve along with yours? its always been my belief, that we achieve more by doing less damage. i am not a LEO, and i do not claim to know what officers have to face each day, but wouldnt it be easier to use physical force and hurt his pride, than to RISK killing him? sure, the guy may be a total scumbag and may be one of the worst people in the world, but that doesnt change one thing, he is loved by someone somewhere. i agree, he shouldnt be so aggressive and volatile, but i just personally believe there would have to be more options to defend yourself and those around u. "if he dies so be it."? come on, it is still a life. one that is valuable. i find it hard to have a attitude of cold-blooded killing. especially someone with a broken bottle. if every officer shot first and asked questions later, where will that lead?

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                          • #58
                            Allow to me clarify

                            for those of you too ignorant to read...

                            I never said not to use a firearm in the situation or that secondary tools were the best answer all the time. What I said, REPEATEDLY, was that it is not always the best solution to fire into a bar. The reason was that mj initially stated that he would 'fire from the hip on the move.' or something to that effect. I have worked in a bar for about 6 years, so I know what the hell I am talking about in there, though I may not be the expert.

                            The bar that employs me regularly had about 200 people over the 900 person capacity. You are trying to tell me that you would not hit another innocent person in this situation. That is pure BS. You cannot be certain of the environment in a bar. The music is loud, the people are drunk, where I am at the lights are dim or brightly flashing during concerts, the air is/was smoky. There are so many things that come into effect here. What if someone bumps you as you pull the trigger? You are still liable for that round, just like a CCW holder.

                            There is a reason that most bars do not have armed security.It is stupid. As it was said before, guns and booze don't mix. It doesn't matter who has the guns or the booze, but they are a deadly combination. Hell, our boss told us that off-duty LEO's were not allowed to pack in the bar. Many tried.


                            Also, nobody, regardless of range time and training can be 100% certain where each round they fire ends up. Especially under stress. "Deadly Force" certainly brings out a stress response.

                            Also, mj went as far as to say that the collateral damage was inconsequential. If those in LE and security don't give a damn about what's behind what we shoot, then why do we have to qualify on a gun range? To avoid hitting the wrong thing. And if collateral damage does not matter, then how are people to feel safe knowing that you are willing to shoot up an area to take down someone who could be taken out another way.

                            So, instead of insulting my training and experience, try to read what I am saying. I HAVE worked in a bar and I HAVE seen people disarmed without weapons. I never said one way was better than the other. I totally acknowledge that both ways present risks, but I am not willing to hit innocent people with firepower that was unecessary in the first place. I was simply trying to explain that there are other options available. That's why we have nifty Batman belts at work.

                            Like I have said before. you can disagree all you want. My experience showed me that such disarming is possible without a weapon. My experience also shows me that alot of S/O's are way too trigger happy as it is and need to be tempered better. I have worked with guys who draw on anything and they scare the crap out of me. I have had to un-holster my weapon twice outside of training, storage, and maintenance and have never had to fire a shot to end a conflict. If the sidearm is the only way that some can get their job accomplished, I don't think I am the one who needs to be trained better...
                            Last edited by doulos Christou; 03-19-2008, 12:14 PM.

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                            • #59
                              Do I want to read that I shot some father of 3, no.
                              Do I want to lay in an emergency room with a severe laceration to my face or body? NO!
                              Do I want my wife and grandkids to be visited by an officer of the law telling them my body is in the local morgue? Hell No!

                              even without breaking the bottle, the bottle is a deadly weapon, and if I pull my gun and tell him to drop it, he better damn well do what he is told, or I WILL drop him.

                              2 to the chest, 1 to the head. Thats the body armor drill
                              they taught us in the acadamy, and it is the same course they teach us in security.

                              If it is good enough for Federal Law Enforcement, it is good enough for me.

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                              • #60
                                blackC

                                PM away....

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