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  • #16
    in any case, i'm shooting the MoFo.
    i'm going home at the end of my tour.
    never bring a bottle to a gunfight.
    Washington DC

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    • #17
      I dont know if this has been covered by someone else but i'm going to throw my two cents out there. I'd definitely go with the OC Spray--for many reasons....

      1. there are way too many innocent bystanders to use your sidearm that you will most likely hit someone or something you don't intend to. Plus you have to consider that you're in a bar, which I would take as a CQB situation and you never know if there is a drunk standing next to you that wants to disarm you.

      2. Pretty much the same scenario with the baton, theres too many people around you and the last thing you want is someone getting ahold of your baton...or worse, your sidearm...and using it against you.

      So I'd go with the OC Spray and remove the assailant from the scene as quickly as possible because there are so many potential weapons in the bar...pool sticks, beer bottles, other drunks, etc.
      "Be courteous. Be polite. Have a plan to kill everyone you meet!" --U.S. Marines

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by dougo83 View Post
        Regardless of how adamantly you feel you must disagree, I am anything but wrong on this one. I disarmed a drunk in a bar just this January using my friggin hands. I don't care how long you've been a cop or how much training you claim to do, I've been there, seen it, and done it. Just because you may not be able to, does not make it an impossibility.
        Sorry dougo, but I have to disagree with you as well. And to use your logic here, just because you have successfully disarmed a drunk with your bare hands, does not automatically make you right on this issue. And no offense, but I would rather listen to the advice of guys who were cops for 20+ years over the advice of someone who feels they are right just because they've done it once or twice. But like I said, no offense.

        Is the gun the BEST solution in this scenario? No, probably not. As you and others have said there is a high chance you might hit an innocent bystander, or you might have it taken away by one of the other drunks while you're focused on the initial guy.

        But is the gun the WRONG solution? Absolutely not! The guy has an edged weapon, which constitutes deadly force. Period, end of discussion. If this were an empty parking lot, my sights would be on center-mass without question.

        So really, the only way to come up with a specific answer on this scenario would be to know how crowded the bar is, and whether or not there are more patrons behind him that I may hit. If there's nobody else standing around me, and the area behind him is clear, then I absolutely would draw down on him whether I'm in a bar or not.

        I think some of you guys are forgetting the #1 rule of this business: "No matter what happens, *I* am going home at the end of my shift." Officer safety is paramount, and we can't afford to second guess our actions in a lethal force situation like this.

        I guess I'll stop ranting now, but as I said: If the guy has an edged weapon like this, my gun is my #1 choice no matter what. I would ONLY submit to using a lesser weapon if I had no alternatives due to other circumstances.
        Corbier's Commandos - "Stickin it to the ninjas!"
        Originally posted by ValleyOne
        BANG, next thing you know Bob's your Uncle and this Sgt is seemingly out on his a$$.
        Shoulda called in sick.
        Be safe!

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        • #19
          Originally posted by mjw064 View Post
          Regardless of how adamantly you feel you must disagree, I am anything but wrong on this one. I disarmed a drunk in a bar just this January using my friggin hands. I don't care how long you've been a cop or how much training you claim to do, I've been there, seen it, and done it. Just because you may not be able to, does not make it an impossibility.

          yeah since he put it that way, i agree 100% now. hell i am on my way down to the armory to secure my GLOCK17 and H&K MP5 right now. i have seen the light. i dont need any damned guns to defend my life or do my job.

          thanks for helping me see the light!

          If you are going to act like you are 5 and say that, then you probably should not have a firearm in the first place. What I am saying is that you want to blast away IN A CROWDED BAR to stop a guy with a bottle and that is stupid...

          Oh, and good job on TOTALLY missing the point
          Last edited by doulos Christou; 03-18-2008, 05:37 PM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Charger View Post
            Sorry dougo, but I have to disagree with you as well. And to use your logic here, just because you have successfully disarmed a drunk with your bare hands, does not automatically make you right on this issue. And no offense, but I would rather listen to the advice of guys who were cops for 20+ years over the advice of someone who feels they are right just because they've done it once or twice. But like I said, no offense.

            Is the gun the BEST solution in this scenario? No, probably not. As you and others have said there is a high chance you might hit an innocent bystander, or you might have it taken away by one of the other drunks while you're focused on the initial guy.

            But is the gun the WRONG solution? Absolutely not! The guy has an edged weapon, which constitutes deadly force. Period, end of discussion. If this were an empty parking lot, my sights would be on center-mass without question.

            So really, the only way to come up with a specific answer on this scenario would be to know how crowded the bar is, and whether or not there are more patrons behind him that I may hit. If there's nobody else standing around me, and the area behind him is clear, then I absolutely would draw down on him whether I'm in a bar or not.

            I think some of you guys are forgetting the #1 rule of this business: "No matter what happens, *I* am going home at the end of my shift." Officer safety is paramount, and we can't afford to second guess our actions in a lethal force situation like this.

            I guess I'll stop ranting now, but as I said: If the guy has an edged weapon like this, my gun is my #1 choice no matter what. I would ONLY submit to using a lesser weapon if I had no alternatives due to other circumstances.

            Charger, my response was to tennsix who seems to believe it is impossible to disarm someone with a bottle. But hey, he has 20 years experience. What do I have? Security video footage of me doing just what I said can be done. So, disagree all you want. Firing a gun in a crowded bar, as I have stated the whole time, is an absolutely stupid and dangerous thing to do.

            Also, I can accept disagreeing with me, but that doesn't make my position any less true. Don't tell me that your inability or willingness to do something means it cannot be done (not directed at you, Charger, just a summation of what I said.)

            I am all for making it home at the end of my shift, but I sure won't be staying home long if I take the ignorant approach of shooting while moving away from a target in a crowded, loud, and very busy area. I will go home until the police show up to take my license, my weapon, and my freedom for manslaughter or ADW at best...
            Last edited by doulos Christou; 03-18-2008, 05:33 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by mjw064 View Post
              in any case, i'm shooting the MoFo.
              i'm going home at the end of my tour.
              never bring a bottle to a gunfight.
              Wow, truly spoken like someone mature enough to have a firearm. Is "mofo" the technical term that you learn in DC?

              Comment


              • #22
                If I could sneak up behind him, I would baton-strike the hand with the bottle.

                Other wise if he wasn't actively charging me, I would one-hand draw with my strong hand immediately to a low ready. Then I would covertly get the spray(jel) ready in the weak hand and surprise spray him.

                If he goes down at that point, I would keep distance and do a firearm switch to my weak hand and deploy the baton with my strong hand and strike him until he released the bottle. Then I would have an unarmed bouncer cuff him up to minimise that chance for another patron grabbing my gun.

                If at anytime he charged me aggressivly I would strongly consider shooting him. Given there are no crowds of people behind him (hard in a bar setting).
                Last edited by BoyInBlue; 03-18-2008, 05:52 PM.
                Police Officer

                Experience: Bouncer, EMT, Theme Park Security, Money Transport, Armed Guard

                Comment


                • #23
                  Dougo, you are basing the answer on YOUR luck in a similar situation. But the problem is that not everyone is a super cool ninja with mad baton skills like you! Could you imagine a SWAT sniper critiquing a street officer who kills someone by saying "I would have shot the pistol from his hand, the officer didn't need to shoot him in the chest"? Additionally, your response is based on your personal experience while the response of the LEO/ex-LEO here are basing it on training that was created due to the deaths of officers who were afraid to use the appropriate amount of force.

                  A broken bottle is an edged weapon... in other words, a deadly weapon. I hear what you are saying about innocent bystanders, but preventing injuring them is what training and range qualifications are designed to reduce the risk of. Initiating a response of a lower level of force than appropriate is not just wrong, it is DANGEROUS and has gotten people killed.
                  -Jedi-
                  Semper Paratus

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                  • #24
                    You've got to be kidding me. This is actually a discussion. It's a deadly force situation. You don't bring an intermediate weapon to a deadly force situation.

                    If you don't have clear lines of fire MOVE, if that doesn't work, RETREAT (if your are the target). Who in their right mind gets in baton distance of someone with an edged weapon?

                    WTF?

                    Dougo, I like you, you've always displayed good sense, but you about 500 miles off base with this one. Seriously.
                    ~Black Caesar~
                    Corbier's Commandos

                    " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Jedi View Post
                      Dougo, you are basing the answer on YOUR luck in a similar situation. But the problem is that not everyone is a super cool ninja with mad baton skills like you! Could you imagine a SWAT sniper critiquing a street officer who kills someone by saying "I would have shot the pistol from his hand, the officer didn't need to shoot him in the chest"? Additionally, your response is based on your personal experience while the response of the LEO/ex-LEO here are basing it on training that was created due to the deaths of officers who were afraid to use the appropriate amount of force.

                      A broken bottle is an edged weapon... in other words, a deadly weapon. I hear what you are saying about innocent bystanders, but preventing injuring them is what training and range qualifications are designed to reduce the risk of. Initiating a response of a lower level of force than appropriate is not just wrong, it is DANGEROUS and has gotten people killed.
                      Well said. Trying to Ninja/Rambo your way through something like this is crazy talk. As was explained to us when I was in the academy, there is a REASON we do things a certain way, because somewhere, at some time in the past someone did it another way AND DIED FOR IT.
                      ~Black Caesar~
                      Corbier's Commandos

                      " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Dougo, calm down. You're not helping your position. Mjw064... same goes for you. If the two of you can't talk nice, I'm gonna have to ask you to step to opposite ends of the bar.

                        (Incidently... that is similar to the line/idea most uttered by bouncers.)

                        Now, to business.

                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by mjw064
                        in any case, i'm shooting the MoFo.
                        i'm going home at the end of my tour.
                        never bring a bottle to a gunfight.


                        If this is truly how you feel, I am sorry to tell you that you will never (and probably should never) be employed in a bar.

                        A bouncer has 3 jobs: (1) make sure all state liquor control requirements are met; (2) protect the patrons, employees, and assets of the bar from receiving harm, if possible; and (3) protect the reputation of the bar.

                        That last one's important. If a bar has a bad rep, its patrons will disappear. No patrons, no income. No income... no bar. (And nothing can damage a bar's rep more than "Don't go there... the bouncer shot a guy inside.")

                        99% of bouncers are not LEOs. (In at least one state, they can't be.) Most don't want to be. Most like guns, but would never dream of using one inside the bar. Why not? 2 reasons: in case something goes awry, they're not covered by any specific legal protections; and the risks of collateral damage, and liability to the bar owners, employees, and the bouncer, are way too high. The bouncer isn't there to stop crime. The bouncer isn't there to make arrests. The bouncer isn't there to be a hero. The bouncer is there to try to keep the peace, in a peaceful manner. The Roadhouse style bouncer of the past is becoming a very rare thing.
                        "I don't do judgment. Just retrieval."

                        "The true triumph of reason is that it enables us to get along with those who do not possess it."

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by dougo83 View Post
                          Charger, my response was to tennsix who seems to believe it is impossible to disarm someone with a bottle. But hey, he has 20 years experience. What do I have? Security video footage of me doing just what I said can be done. So, disagree all you want. Firing a gun in a crowded bar, as I have stated the whole time, is an absolutely stupid and dangerous thing to do.

                          Also, I can accept disagreeing with me, but that doesn't make my position any less true. Don't tell me that your inability or willingness to do something means it cannot be done (not directed at you, Charger, just a summation of what I said.)

                          I am all for making it home at the end of my shift, but I sure won't be staying home long if I take the ignorant approach of shooting while moving away from a target in a crowded, loud, and very busy area. I will go home until the police show up to take my license, my weapon, and my freedom for manslaughter or ADW at best...
                          I never said it is impossible. I am asserting doing it your way unduly exposes an officer to the possibility of serious injury.

                          It's actually 22 years of experience and have had my fair share of armed assailants and bar fights. Winning one fight makes not a career nor does it credential you as a D.T. expert. We all get lucky sometimes.

                          Early on, someone mentioned property damage. WHo cares about that. That would be the least of my worries.
                          I believe I speak for everyone here sir, when I say, to Hell with our orders.
                          -Lieutenant Commander Data
                          sigpic

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                          • #28
                            Jedi, there's nothing 'ninja' about it, so your smart arse comment just looks stupid.

                            Black C, thanks, but all I am saying is that it can be done and has been done. Is it the best idea? Maybe not for some. Is firing a gun the most logical idea in a bar? Never. Yes, you meet deadly force with the same , but no tto the point of stupidity or recklessness. Also, find me a clear line of sight in a crowded bar. That is the scenario that I introduced and have clearly stated in this thread. I would not use a firearm in a bar, regardless of how well I am trained with it. Bars are loud, usually have lighting issues, and people are not paying attention, what if you inadvertently hit someone who is jacking around in the bar and ends up in the path of your weapon? No amount of training defense, short of Mas Ayoob I guess, will save you from prison on that one.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Black Caesar View Post
                              You've got to be kidding me. This is actually a discussion. It's a deadly force situation. You don't bring an intermediate weapon to a deadly force situation.

                              If you don't have clear lines of fire MOVE, if that doesn't work, RETREAT (if your are the target). Who in their right mind gets in baton distance of someone with an edged weapon?

                              WTF?

                              Dougo, I like you, you've always displayed good sense, but you about 500 miles off base with this one. Seriously.
                              It's only a deadly force situation if you are person authorized to use deadly force in your state, like a LEO.

                              Bar security are almost always NOT LEOs. And most of the time, they don't have the option of "retreat"... they're job is to get involved, even if it puts them at risk. There does come a point of "overwhelming force" where you back off... and call the police.

                              Frankly, if I'd simply shot everyone who came at me in a bar using "deadly force" levels of violence/weapons... there'd be a trail of probably 200 bodies behind me over the last 10 years, along with 30 or 40 innocents. Just because some drunk comes at me with a bottle/Swiss army knife/pool cue/bar stool doesn't mean I'm going to shoot him. There are better ways for me to handle it. And anyone who has the training of a LEO has better tools in their repertoire to handle it as well. Yeah, I've been beat up a couple of times. I've had more than a few stitches. And you know what? I've gone home at the end of every shift.

                              And just because I think this doesn't mean I'm an idiot, either. The bar's local PD is on speeddial on my phone; very useful when an idiot brings a gun into the situation. I've never seen so many pulled and pointed weapons in my life... and no one got shot. (This was 4 weeks ago.) I call that a success. No one has ever died in any bar I was working in. If I have my way, no one will.
                              "I don't do judgment. Just retrieval."

                              "The true triumph of reason is that it enables us to get along with those who do not possess it."

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Tennsix View Post
                                Early on, someone mentioned property damage. WHo cares about that. That would be the least of my worries.
                                You're thinking like a public officer, not a private citizen. The bar owner cares. Therefore his employees also need to care. It becomes a part of their worries.
                                "I don't do judgment. Just retrieval."

                                "The true triumph of reason is that it enables us to get along with those who do not possess it."

                                Comment

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