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  • #16
    The main issue is learning the state's laws and such. Just because you've been a cop for 15yrs in Detoit doesn't mean you would know about Oklahoma's laws.

    Not trying to be a stick in the mud but, for example, in California they have Grand Theft Auto. In Oregon we don't. But, we do have Unauthorized Use of A Motor Vehicle.

    The experience (priceless) and Officer Survival Training (hopefully) would be universal, but the laws and procedual issues are strikingly different.

    But that's just how I view it... I could be wrong, hell it's happen before.
    ~Super Ninja Sniper~
    Corbier's Commandos

    Nemo me impune lacessit

    Grammical and Spelling errors may occur form time to time. Yoov bin worned

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Black Caesar View Post
      http://www.dps.state.mn.us/newpost/faqs/faqs.htm#III



      Not too hoity toity to me it seems.

      Most police departments, given a choice of candidates between someone that has a degree, and someone that does not, regardless of experience, will take the one with a degree. I was a reserve where I grew up for seven years, and I am now a reserve where I currently live. I've seen many hirings throughout the years. The first depatment I was with, only has 1 cop there, that was there when I started in 1996, including the chief. I've never heard of someone being hired without a degree. And, my father was a cop with the neighboring PD for 30 years. Once degrees were a state requiremant, nobody after that got hired there without one as well. Experience in law enforcement does not amount to much if it is from out of state and you don't have a degree. Reciprocity may make you eligable for MN POST lisencing, but it does not mean a department will hire you. MN pumps out more POST eligable people then there are available jobs, so PD's have their pick of the litter.
      sgtnewby
      Senior Member
      Last edited by sgtnewby; 02-21-2008, 04:33 AM.
      Apparently a HUGE cop wannabe...

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      • #18
        Originally posted by sgtnewby View Post
        Most police departments, given a choice of candidates between someone that has a degree, and someone that does not, regardless of experience, will take the one with a degree. I was a reserve where I grew up for seven years, and I am now a reserve where I currently live. I've seen many hirings throughout the years. The first depatment I was with, only has 1 cop there, that was there when I started in 1996, including the chief. I've never heard of someone being hired without a degree. And, my father was a cop with the neighboring PD for 30 years. Once degrees were a state requiremant, nobody after that got hired there without one as well. Experience in law enforcement does not amount to much if it is from out of state and you don't have a degree. Reciprocity may make you eligable for MN POST lisencing, but it does not mean a department will hire you. MN pumps out more POST eligable people then there are available jobs, so PD's have their pick of the litter.
        So, what's wrong with having a degree? Police Officers with Post Secondary Degrees have fewer use of force complaints than those who don't for example (From PACE, the Police Association for College Education. One of the Recommendations of the original Omnibus Police Act (the law that turned it all around for American police) was college degrees for all police officers (something that hasn't happened...except in Minnesota).

        You'd think Minnesota Citizens would be proud of the fact the Police in that state are leading the way, and that it would be hard for cops from other states to just walk in to police employment there.
        ~Black Caesar~
        Corbier's Commandos

        " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

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        • #19
          Once upon a time in my state you had to have completed your GED equivalent (students can leave in year 10 and still move on in life but most go onto a trade school) and if you had completed a trade you were able to be accepted. Rules changed and a Diploma of Policing was meant to bring everyone on par but those with a degree say in IT or science could branch out. Times have changed people and whilst I have a degree in Business and come June will finalise my degree in Risk Management would be unable to compete now in our industry without tertiary education.

          You can only go so far without a documented tertiary education and our police force is screaming for life skills recruits with degrees as the focus shifts now to ensure diversification is assured by not having clones come through the ranks. Even shifting to an associate degree or diploma is going to give someone the edge on someone with similar experience and without tertiary education.
          "Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer" Sun Tzu

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Black Caesar View Post
            So, what's wrong with having a degree? Police Officers with Post Secondary Degrees have fewer use of force complaints than those who don't for example (From PACE, the Police Association for College Education. One of the Recommendations of the original Omnibus Police Act (the law that turned it all around for American police) was college degrees for all police officers (something that hasn't happened...except in Minnesota).

            You'd think Minnesota Citizens would be proud of the fact the Police in that state are leading the way, and that it would be hard for cops from other states to just walk in to police employment there.
            So, are the cops in the other 49 states bad cops because, they, for the most part, don't have degrees? I don't have a degree, and in 11 years, I have never had a use of force complaint filed against me. I don't know the exact figure, but I'd be willing to bet that 75% of police officers in the U.S. do not have degrees, and I think they do a pretty good job. I'm just saying that I do not believe that you can't be a good cop without a degree. My father was a cop for 27.5 years. He started in 1965, retired in 1993, was grandfathered in, and never had a criminal justice degree. You do not make it that long if you are incompitant. He also, has never an excessive force complaint against him.
            Apparently a HUGE cop wannabe...

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            • #21
              Originally posted by sgtnewby View Post
              So, are the cops in the other 49 states bad cops because, they, for the most part, don't have degrees? I don't have a degree, and in 11 years, I have never had a use of force complaint filed against me. I don't know the exact figure, but I'd be willing to bet that 75% of police officers in the U.S. do not have degrees, and I think they do a pretty good job. I'm just saying that I do not believe that you can't be a good cop without a degree. My father was a cop for 27.5 years. He started in 1965, retired in 1993, was grandfathered in, and never had a criminal justice degree. You do not make it that long if you are incompitant. He also, has never an excessive force complaint against him.
              It's not about You or me or anyone you know, I only have an associates and I don't beat people silly.

              But the facts don't lie, statistically speaking the 35% or so College Educated (meaning 4 year degree'd) cops have fewer on the job discipline and use of force problems over the life of their career than cops who don't have degrees.

              And, Education for police isn't about making good cops anyway. having that degree is a sign that you can accomplish a really really tough personal goal, and the same reason you can do that is the same reason post graduate degree'd cops have fewer use of force complaints: Demonstrated Self Discipline. Because it's self discipline that keeps you from cracking off on some nimrod that you just arrested that really really needed it.

              College Degree'd individuals aren't the only disciplined people, ex-military folk usually fit into this category, and plenty of people who have neither background do good work in Law Enforcement. But if you can understand why more training is a good thing, you can understand why more education is good too.
              ~Black Caesar~
              Corbier's Commandos

              " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

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              • #22
                Folks, when I say "you still have to have another state's POST," thats what I mean. You'll have an accelerated course, but you still have to take someone else's POST course.

                As far as the rest of it... game on.
                Some Kind of Commando Leader

                "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Black Caesar View Post
                  It's not about You or me or anyone you know, I only have an associates and I don't beat people silly.

                  But the facts don't lie, statistically speaking the 35% or so College Educated (meaning 4 year degree'd) cops have fewer on the job discipline and use of force problems over the life of their career than cops who don't have degrees.
                  1. I don't have a degre at all, I have a certificate in auto collision repair, and I don't beat people silly, either...

                  2. Of course there are going to be fewer on the job disciplinary actions against the 35% of college educated cops vs. non-college educated cops, there are fewer of them.

                  3. How many excessive force complaints are there against MN cops? Every one of them has at least a 2 year degree by state standard...

                  Working at an urban level 1 trauma center, I've seen some pretty beat up people brought in by police. Mostly justified, some unjustified. I've seen excessive force happen right in front of me. It doesn't mean that MN cops are more likely to be excessive then say, WI cops. It just means college education doesn't take away agressive behavior simply because you worked hard to achieve a personal goal.
                  Apparently a HUGE cop wannabe...

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by sgtnewby View Post
                    1. I don't have a degre at all, I have a certificate in auto collision repair, and I don't beat people silly, either...
                    Are you a Minnesota Peace officer? What does this have to do with anything, we're talking about Peace Officer license holders I thought?

                    2. Of course there are going to be fewer on the job disciplinary actions against the 35% of college educated cops vs. non-college educated cops, there are fewer of them.
                    Sigh, instead of arguing with me you might want to actually read the report I posted. Th original PACE report is about Florida, but subsequent reports about other states (and nationwide) suggest the exact same things:

                    Table 2 shows that if you just look across the whole spectrum of discipline issued by the Florida Justice Standards Training Commission in a five year period, 75% of all the discipline they issued was to officers with a high school diploma. Even though only 58% of the officers in the state have high school as their ultimate level of education, 75% of all the discipline issued was to that group.
                    I have a hard copy of the Texas PACE Study (given to us during the last mandated legislative update) that suggests the exact same thing about TCLEOSE issued disciplinary actions. There are other studies about Department level discipline and education levels.

                    It's a simple fact, College educated cops have lower instances of State issued disciplinary actions across the country. These studies are funded by the Department of Justice.

                    The point is, no matter how much you don't like it, the facts are clear, college educated peace officers have fewer problems in several areas than non-college educated peace officers.

                    I'm waiting for you to provide some evidence showing me that I'm wrong, rather than just "but at my job I see" type stuff.
                    Black Caesar
                    Senior Member
                    Last edited by Black Caesar; 02-21-2008, 06:12 PM.
                    ~Black Caesar~
                    Corbier's Commandos

                    " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      So, what are the numbers of excessive force complaints against MN cops vs. a comparable state that does not require a degree? The report does not show that. Why, if they want to push for all police to have degrees, would they not mention MN, considering as a state, they require a degree. Wouldn't MN be used as a "good example?"
                      Apparently a HUGE cop wannabe...

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Black Caesar View Post
                        You'd think Minnesota Citizens would be proud of the fact the Police in that state are leading the way, and that it would be hard for cops from other states to just walk in to police employment there.
                        Another fun fact about Minnesota is that we were the first state to license LEOs.
                        "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." Sun-Tzu

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by sgtnewby View Post
                          So, what are the numbers of excessive force complaints against MN cops vs. a comparable state that does not require a degree? The report does not show that. Why, if they want to push for all police to have degrees, would they not mention MN, considering as a state, they require a degree. Wouldn't MN be used as a "good example?"
                          I have no idea, there is no PACE or DoJ report for Minnesota Law Enforcement that I can find. But PACE advocates 4 year degrees, Minnesota only requires 2 years, and only 3 Minn PDs (Burnsville Police Department, Eagan City Police Department and St. Cloud PD) require 4 year degrees, which is what PACE is concerned with.

                          Still, according to MPOST's latest report that I could find (2005):

                          Report found here


                          -Opened 32 allegations of misconduct cases and 14 impartial policing complaints
                          -Processed 24 complaint committee actions and 8 automatic license revocations
                          - Participated in one administrative law judge hearing

                          For an entire state, with 10,000+ Peace Officers, that's damn impressive. I have hard copies of the last TCLEOSE yearly Administrative Actions report, the section about suspended, revoked or voluntarily surrendered licenses are three pages long (You can get those reports from HERE). Texas has 7 times as many LEOs, but you''ll find MORE than 7 times as many state actions against License Holders. 3 pages, I'm not kidding. Not much considering 70,000 Texas cops, but still too too much. Like Florida, only about 1/3rd of Texas LEOs have Degrees.

                          I'm proud of my state and my brother (and to keep it PC, Sister lol) Texas Peace Officers, but the truth is, we could use some "Minnesotan" thinking down here, because looking at the raw numbers, Minnesota is doing something right.
                          Black Caesar
                          Senior Member
                          Last edited by Black Caesar; 02-21-2008, 09:23 PM.
                          ~Black Caesar~
                          Corbier's Commandos

                          " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Almost right...

                            ...California POST is not universally accepted wholesale in 50 states. In Washington State, one cannot "challenge" the state's certification outright. There is a two-week long equivalency academy that allows previously certified/out-of-state peace officers to enjoy full standing provided they pass written and practical exams. California or otherwise.... --K.
                            Bitter clinger to my guns and religion....

                            "When I die, I desire no better winding sheet than the Stars and Stripes, and no softer pillow than the Constitution of my country."--Andrew Jackson

                            Psychological Operations: Because physical wounds heal.

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                            • #29
                              The real Money

                              I attended a state police academy and then did thirteen years with a sheriff's department IN America before realizing that I was starving to death on the wages that I was making. When I finally left, I was Chief Deputy of a thirty-five member agency. I changed to a private security contractor and now make just about three times what I made as the Chief Deputy and I get a hell of alot more time off every month. This year, i'll make over $75k without extra overtime and I'll still work only six months a year. I miss the police work, but the money and the time off is great - and don't forget the hunting and fishing that averyone dreams about in Alaska.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Here4th$ View Post
                                I attended a state police academy and then did thirteen years with a sheriff's department IN America before realizing that I was starving to death on the wages that I was making. When I finally left, I was Chief Deputy of a thirty-five member agency. I changed to a private security contractor and now make just about three times what I made as the Chief Deputy and I get a hell of alot more time off every month. This year, i'll make over $75k without extra overtime and I'll still work only six months a year. I miss the police work, but the money and the time off is great - and don't forget the hunting and fishing that averyone dreams about in Alaska.

                                There is a department in America that pay a Chief Deputy 25k a year? What did the deputies get? Minimum wage?

                                I know that some places pay police officers/deputies poor wages, but that takes the cake.

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