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Security guard: Shooting man was last option

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  • Tennsix
    replied
    OC is less effective if deployed in too close of quarters. The suspect is hit with mostly carrier (water) and the OC is flushed away. That typically accounts for such a lag time.

    I agree the officer was confronted with deadly force and reacted appropriately. OC is not intended to be used against a threat of deadly force.
    Last edited by Tennsix; 02-12-2008, 07:18 AM.

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  • bigdog
    replied
    Originally posted by OMG_Ihatethisjob View Post
    Read the news story article again; perhaps you failed to notice he was outnumbered at least 4 to 1. If I was a gangbanger, a person with no regard for human life, and a lone solitary security guard walks up to me with the possible intention of arresting me, I would not let him walk away alive. I would signal my friends to circle the guard, then I'll talk to the guard to distract him. When the guard gets close enough, I will rush him while simultaneously reaching for a knife to slit his throat. I don't know what part of the country you're in, but I'm in Los Angeles, and the gangs here are used to seeing death.

    The Texas guard made a very bad judgement to approach a group of men, with no knowledge of what he was dealing with. A solitary LEO would have requested backup first, and waited for other officers to arrive, rather than to face a group of unknown men, especially outside a bar. The guy who first attacked the S/O had moved too soon. He should had waited until his friends had gotten behind, cut off the S/O's means of escape, and then lunged at the S/O.

    The burning sensation that pepper spray brings on is not immediate. The first 30 to 45 seconds, the pain is tolerable.
    A attacker can do a lot of damage in that first minute before pepper spray finally delivers the desired effect. The article didn't mention if the S/O carried a baton, which is what he should had reached for when the men started to come forward. When the men had started throwing rocks, then we can argue justifiable homicide; however, he created a dangerous situation when he approached the group on his own, which no reasonable-minded LEO would had done.

    Ever heard of the term "Tomb stone courage?" If you adamantly believe he did the right thing to approach a group of unknown men by himself, well this is America, and you certainly have the right to put your life in a precarious situation like this S/O did. Exposing yourself to unnecessary risk, and getting yourself killed, is certainly part of your Constitutional right to express your freedom.
    He approached the man urinating then the others attacked him. He did not approach the entire group at first. It says one of the suspects vomited in the parking lot he didn't approach him or the suspect who threw the rock.
    I didn't say the officer should tried to arrest the man I was referring to you saying That BSIS says you may ONLY observe and report.
    As far as the OC taking 30 seconds for the desired effect, Thats not been my experience with using it it usually takes maybe 5-10 seconds to take effect on most people. However Ive seen it take 2 minutes to take effect on an intoxicated subject. A baton against three men ? While your engaged with striking one man the other 2 will attack you. He probably would've gotten the heck beaten out of him trying to take on 3 men with a baton.

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  • OMG_Ihatethisjob
    replied
    What would a reasonable person do ??

    Originally posted by bigdog View Post
    I find that hard to believe because as part of the security guard training requirement in CA is you have to go through 8 hr power to arrest course. It says your Primary duty is to observe and report but may arrest like any other private citizen, for a public offense committed in your presence or a felony with probable cause.
    Read the news story article again; perhaps you failed to notice he was outnumbered at least 4 to 1. If I was a gangbanger, a person with no regard for human life, and a lone solitary security guard walks up to me with the possible intention of arresting me, I would not let him walk away alive. I would signal my friends to circle the guard, then I'll talk to the guard to distract him. When the guard gets close enough, I will rush him while simultaneously reaching for a knife to slit his throat. I don't know what part of the country you're in, but I'm in Los Angeles, and the gangs here are used to seeing death.

    The Texas guard made a very bad judgement to approach a group of men, with no knowledge of what he was dealing with. A solitary LEO would have requested backup first, and waited for other officers to arrive, rather than to face a group of unknown men, especially outside a bar. The guy who first attacked the S/O had moved too soon. He should had waited until his friends had gotten behind, cut off the S/O's means of escape, and then lunged at the S/O.

    The burning sensation that pepper spray brings on is not immediate. The first 30 to 45 seconds, the pain is tolerable. A attacker can do a lot of damage in that first minute before pepper spray finally delivers the desired effect. The article didn't mention if the S/O carried a baton, which is what he should had reached for when the men started to come forward. When the men had started throwing rocks, then we can argue justifiable homicide; however, he created a dangerous situation when he approached the group on his own, which no reasonable-minded LEO would had done.

    Ever heard of the term "Tomb stone courage?" If you adamantly believe he did the right thing to approach a group of unknown men by himself, well this is America, and you certainly have the right to put your life in a precarious situation like this S/O did. Exposing yourself to unnecessary risk, and getting yourself killed, is certainly part of your Constitutional right to express your freedom.

    Leave a comment:


  • bigdog
    replied
    Originally posted by OMG_Ihatethisjob View Post
    Seeing it was a group of men, and he was by himself, that was red flag #1.
    He was working in a bar environment, where people will be intoxicated, and likely do and say things they wouldn't have done if they were sober, was red flag #2. He's black, and the subjects were all hispanics; I don't know what the racial situation is in Texas, but in California, hispanics and blacks don't get along too well. The fact that he was looking at a group of hispanics, and he was of a race whom hispanics are usually not too friendly with, was red flag #3.

    If it was me, I wouldn't have approached these hispanic men by myself. If it were 2 men, yes, I'll talk to them (with my PR24 tucked under my arm). 3 or more, I'm going to need some back up if these (possibly intoxicated) group of men decide they are going to gang up on me, which in this case, they did. I think he made a bad decision to approach without calling for some help. If he was working by himself with no partner, then he should had called LEOs to the scene for urinating in public, and indecent exposure.

    I've worked bars before, and without talking to a group of suspicious men, I just walk up and write down license numbers, and they get in their cars and leave.

    I'm a California guard, and we have no power at all out here. We are classified as "private citizens," which means we have as much police power as the next Tom, Dick, & Harry with prior felony convictions. When we are given our guard license, we are not sworn in to recite any oath. The agency that regulates CA guards stipulate that we are only to "observe and report," and not to take corrective action that exposes ourselves to an unreasonable amount of risk.
    I find that hard to believe because as part of the security guard training requirement in CA is you have to go through 8 hr power to arrest course. It says your Primary duty is to observe and report but may arrest like any other private citizen, for a public offense committed in your presence or a felony with probable cause.

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  • OMG_Ihatethisjob
    replied
    I wouldn't have done what he did

    Seeing it was a group of men, and he was by himself, that was red flag #1.
    He was working in a bar environment, where people will be intoxicated, and likely do and say things they wouldn't have done if they were sober, was red flag #2. He's black, and the subjects were all hispanics; I don't know what the racial situation is in Texas, but in California, hispanics and blacks don't get along too well. The fact that he was looking at a group of hispanics, and he was of a race whom hispanics are usually not too friendly with, was red flag #3.

    If it was me, I wouldn't have approached these hispanic men by myself. If it were 2 men, yes, I'll talk to them (with my PR24 tucked under my arm). 3 or more, I'm going to need some back up if these (possibly intoxicated) group of men decide they are going to gang up on me, which in this case, they did. I think he made a bad decision to approach without calling for some help. If he was working by himself with no partner, then he should had called LEOs to the scene for urinating in public, and indecent exposure.

    I've worked bars before, and without talking to a group of suspicious men, I just walk up and write down license numbers, and they get in their cars and leave.

    I'm a California guard, and we have no power at all out here. We are classified as "private citizens," which means we have as much police power as the next Tom, Dick, & Harry with prior felony convictions. When we are given our guard license, we are not sworn in to recite any oath. The agency that regulates CA guards stipulate that we are only to "observe and report," and not to take corrective action that exposes ourselves to an unreasonable amount of risk.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hoji
    replied
    Anytime a security officer is involved in a shooting in Texas, the PSB will suspend the license of the officer until all of the legal smoke clears. The officer will not be able to work in ANY security capacity until his card is reinstated.

    I teach the Level III Course for http://statewidetrainingacademy.com/

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  • bpdblue
    replied
    I agree that having, and additionally throwing rocks at the guard constitutes deadly force being used by the suspects, and using your weapon to defend yourself is lawful.

    Good going for the guard!

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  • Bill Warnock
    replied
    When undergoing Air Police Training at Lackland AFB, TX, we had to run in-place for 30-seconds and then follow commands as to what string of fire would be used. At nighttime shooting, light shining on reflective circle while M-80s were being tossed by instructors. Many of those instructors had returned from their first deployment in Viet Nam, so they added combat realism in each course of instruction.
    That guard automatically reverted to his training and came out alive. As SecTrainer wrote, rocks could represent potential lethal force.
    I'd wager those young men have been in trouble before.
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill

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  • SecTrainer
    replied
    ...and may I point out that the minute these men picked up rocks they were no longer "unarmed", anyway.
    Last edited by SecTrainer; 01-30-2008, 10:08 AM.

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  • Black Caesar
    replied
    Originally posted by dougo83 View Post
    I just wanted to hit a few things here:

    2. He is suspened, it is not admin leave or anything else. State law requires this. Actually, his license can still be pulled, even on a righteous shoot.
    Can you direct me to the exact law. I've never heard of such a thing.

    The Texas Administrative Code requires notification, not any other action. From Title 37:
    (g) The discharge of a firearm while in the performance of their duty by any person registered, or commissioned by a licensee shall be reported to the Austin office of the board. Notification of the discharge of a firearm shall be in writing within 24 hours of the incident, and shall be faxed by the licensee, or manager. The fax shall be addressed to the manager of the bureau at (512) 424-7728. The fax shall include:

    (1) name of the person discharging the firearm;

    (2) name of the employer;

    (3) location of the incident;

    (4) a brief narrative of what happened;

    (5) whether death, personal injury or property damaged resulted; and

    (6) whether the incident is being or was investigated by a law enforcement agency.
    I don't see anything in the occupations code that describes an automatic suspension of a Commisson for any reason, and have never ever heard of one. like i said, I'd like to see the specific law.

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  • Tennsix
    replied
    Originally posted by JB diligence View Post
    Sounds like equal force to me, considering his training and the force used against him as well as being out numbered, I think he did the right thing, remember as a trained military person he could have very well ended his enemies' life.

    Had he not used this force, he may not have got to go home that night. Nice shot.
    The law does not require one to meet force with equal force. The law allows a person to meet force with a greater force, so long the greater force is not disproportionate.

    As for his training, I would venture to guess the officer did not shoot to “wound”. He most likely fired to end the lethal threat which usually means a center mass or head shot. A person under such extreme stress often experiences diminished control of his fine motor skills. Moreover, the officer was exposed to multiple and dynamic threats. In short, his rounds didn’t necessarily hit was he was aiming at.

    The officer is to be commended for his performance. I can only hope to do as well, given the circumstances.

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  • NRM_Oz
    replied
    Thanks for the explanation BC, Tenn and Dougo. Anything of this nature is an automatic 2 day leave suspension paid at most companies as there is the offer of assessment and counselling to the staff involved. As an outsider from the USA, the man took reasonable steps to avoid confrontation, was protecting his life and was attacked in the process. He them checked on the shooting victim and provided a duty of care. Problem solved !! I would argue that his experience and training kicked in and protected himself from harm.

    Would be curious if our Texan posters could explain SOP on matters like this with state laws ? Here you automatically have your firearms licence suspended pending further investigation.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Ok...

    I just wanted to hit a few things here:

    1. With the facts provided, the officer acted accordingly.
    2. He is suspened, it is not admin leave or anything else. State law requires this. Actually, his license can still be pulled, even on a righteous shoot.
    3. No, we commissioned officers are not considered peace officers. However, we are viewed in the eyes of the law as 'public servants.' This title gives a little more clout to criminal cases if we are assaulted, it's the same as hitting a cop.
    4. BC...he may still get screwed. The Austin DA is a reaaal special guy. He loves to ruin the lives of hard-working folks. I wish this guy the best of luck.

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  • JB diligence
    replied
    Sounds like equal force to me, considering his training and the force used against him as well as being out numbered, I think he did the right thing, remember as a trained military person he could have very well ended his enemies' life.

    Had he not used this force, he may not have got to go home that night. Nice shot.

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Caesar
    replied
    Originally posted by gonzo1510 View Post
    Are commisioned security officers considered peace officers in Texas ?
    No. What others call a "Guard Card" or whatever in other states is called a Commision Card here. I got mine from Wackenhut back in the day, but I took the PPO course from These guys a couple years later.

    About the main story: TennSix already called it. He'll be cleared and should be able to return to work, unless the company he works for are total D-bbags lol (he should thank his lucky stars he works in Texas)..

    What the Austin PD Detective said was the important part [quote]"At that point, all of the group started charging the security guard. The security guard, in fear for his life, started taking off running,"[/quuote]

    I'm glad he made it out of that alive. Of course some "rights group" or another group of idiotic monday morning QBs are gonna complain about him shooting an "unarmed man". Some people will never understand that even a small group of humans can kill a person with their bare hands. Mob attacks are deadly force and no Texas law requires anyone to die or be seriously injured FIRST lol.

    Good shoot and Good job but that S/O.

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