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In-House guys: ever have this problem with Contract Security?

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  • In-House guys: ever have this problem with Contract Security?

    My College (as well as the rest of the College District) is going thorough a spate of new construction projects. One of my College's specific projects (refurbishing a building the college has leased to house one of our instructional divisions) is a couple blocks from the main campus. As such, and in addition to my regualr duties on my (night) shift, I end up having to supervise Contract S/Os at this particular project.

    Our usual SOP is to temporarily use Contract Security for such sites until they come on line, this keeps the Campus Police free to protect the main campuses. Gives us time to recruit and train new staff and so forth, then we take it over.

    Part of our SOP is that our own non sworn College Saftey Officers (and by extension, contract S/Os) take direction from the Campus Police Officer on duty even when that officer isn't a Police Supervisor ("will provide direction and supervision College Safety Officers and Contracted College saefty personnel" is a part of every rank-in-file officer's and Corporal's Job Decriprition). We tell the contract company this upfront, their officers will be subject to our guidance. I've never had a problem with any contractors i've been assigned to supervise, met many good folks on those rare occasions I've had to do this.

    Until now....

    I knew it was going to be "something else" when I met the guy. While my boss was giving his boss (who I've met before, we use the same company every time) and the rather ancient S/O (a Sergeant By rank) and me a quick tour of the facility, I tried to get to know the guy.

    I stick out my hand and say "Hi, I'm Mike". He shakes my hand and says "Hi, I'm Sergeant Blank" (Blank isn't of course his real name lol, but it's a damn good description of the guy lol, and by the way, I still don't know the guy's 1st name lol). I think, Oh boy, here we go. Still, I reserve judgement, everyone has their quirks. Some people like their titles lol.

    Well, tour complete, we're standing in front of the contstruction site and "the Sarge" asked my Chief "Is the Corporal here going to be assigned to my shift?". We all just looked at each other and I SEE the company rep roll his eyes. My boss says "The corporal here will be your direct point of contact, you're on his shift". now it's the "Sarge" looking confused.

    Well, you know how someone tries to make something sound like a joke, but they are real serious. The "Sarge" did just that. He laughs and says "what, a Sergeant answering to a Corporal ha ha ha, that can't be right ha ha". The Chief says "well, ha ha, that's how it is" and we move on. Should have been the end of it right?

    Wrong.

    Couple weeks later I end up at the site as part of my patrol (reluctantly, by now I really don't like this guy, but I have to check on him, calls me by name, but still gets mad if I don't call him sergeant lol, he even once said "it's SERGEANT, not SARGE lol, what I get for trying to be friendly). At the same time an Administration member drives up. I was emailed earlier saying she would come to get some item out of one of the offices on a completed floor, but she'd need an escort through the unfinished areas. I had informed the "Sarge" earlier, I hadn't expected to be around when she showed up.

    The "Sarge" was on the phone with his son when she walked up, she tells him who she is, and without blinking he tells her (dead serious) "I'll send the Corporal here with you to make sure you are ok" and goes back to talking on the phone. The Dean (who I've known for years) looks at me funny. So I say "actually I've got to get back to campus, Mr. Blank, please escort her to the admin suite".

    If looks could kill, the look he gave me would have left me nothng more than smoking boots, but he complied, and I left. I reported all this to the Chief, and he had the guy removed. The new guy is a young dude, smart as a whip, working part time while in College at SMU.

    Any of you in-house guys deal with anything like this guy. It was all new to me. I told the chief to ask the contractor to NOT send us anyone else with any "rank" as we only do 1 S/O per shift contracts.
    Last edited by Black Caesar; 01-24-2008, 07:29 AM.
    ~Black Caesar~
    Corbier's Commandos

    " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

  • #2
    Nothing like your story, but yeah.

    Myself and another member here on occassion do in-house armed work for an auction. Well, one night they had some very high priced items such as some paintings worth $100,000+ and a diamond ring with the diamond being about the size of a quarter, and some other likewise items...

    Anywho, the state stepped in on this one and laid down a lot of rules for the sale, I dont know if it was simply the auction's choice or the state's decision, but extra guards were needed.

    So the auction hires out a security company (one I actually used to work for) and hires one guard and a "marked patrol car."

    So... this guard shows up in a mid 90's caprice that you can still read "King County Sheriff" on from where they took off the stripes, it's dirty, moldy, and an embarassment. It has an ice-age lightbar on it that looks like it hasnt been cleaned since Nam.

    I was personally embarassed because I didn't want people to think it was MY patrol car (we dont have patrol cars there so I was afraid people would see us and think its ours).

    So anywho... we primarily work the parking lot, looking for vehicle break ins and providing escorts to people who so desire (the auction is in a somewhat rougher neighborhood). We work plainclothes with the exception of a badge, gun, handcuffs, flashlight, and OC. One can easily tell we're protective services, but that doesn't stop this guard from accosting us. As my partner walks in the guard begins questioning him about his gun and whatnot and has to be informed we are the IN-HOUSE security. This guard spends the majority of his time sitting on a stool and eating and browsing (yes, browsing, no not patrolling) the auction at his own leisure, not following what the client wanted him to do.

    I don't usually have a problem working with other security entities, sometimes it can be a real interesting experience, but this guy was a grade A toolbox.
    "Alright guys listen up, ya'll have probably heard this before, Jackson vs. Securiplex corporation; I am a private security officer, I have no State or governmental authority. I stand as an ordinary citizen. I have no right to; detain, interrogate or otherwise interfere with your personal property-... basically all that means is I'm a cop."-Officer Ernie
    "The Curve" 1998

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    • #3
      That's pretty funny, but kind of makes you wonder what his deal was. Was he a military veteran, or former police officer that is stuck on rank no matter who you work for? When i've shook the hands of police officers, if they told me their first name, i'd always reply with mine. If they use first and last, i'd reply the same..its a respect thing. This character err guy is stuck on back in the day it seems.
      "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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      • #4
        No offence to you blokes - hence why ranks have been banned and are illegal in Australia for private security officer (anything similar - including special constabls DO NOT USE anything that can confuse them with police or military). BC, I feel for you as this is frustrating area but you did travel down the polite path to smooth things over and got nothing for it.
        "Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer" Sun Tzu

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        • #5
          I got a kick out of that story. I have never really been a fan of the military rank system for security. I prefer the supervisor, manager, director titles since they translate over to business a lot more readily than Sergeant, Lieutenant, Captain, etc.

          Everybody knows what a supervisor or manager is but a lot of people would be clueless as to the various military ranks.

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          • #6
            I have no problem with ranks for security. People who say, "Security guards stole 'officer' and 'ranks' from the police," are silly, and the same illogical argument can be made that the police stole those terms from the (French, in most cases) Military.

            As for this guy? This guy has problems not so much with having rank, but with comprehending that his rank (and supervisory authority) only applies to employees in his company.

            I've had the opposite happen, actually. A short-call (off-duty) police officer assigned to our contract security force. While everyone would automatically say, "Oh, he's a cop, he must automatically be in charge of you guys," he was not. His sole purpose was to sit out in his patrol car in a lot and guard some cars. The client had a bunch of very expensive cars, and the insurance company wanted a police officer guarding them.

            The officer could not comprehend that as the client point of contact (it even said it on the sheet that the guard supervisor was the POC), he took orders from the security guard (me).

            To the tune of disappearing, etc. Finally had to call a police sergeant to talk to the guy.
            Some Kind of Commando Leader

            "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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            • #7
              Some Hannon Security Officers (2) helped us secure the hospital during the 35W bridge collapse immediately following the collapse. It took over 60 people to do it, we only had 29 out of 37 of our total staff to do it. A good number, but not enough. HCMC covers 7 city blocks of down town MPLS and is less then 1 mile from the bridge. We had help from the U.S. Marshalls, DEA, Wayzata PD, Crystal PD, Minneapolis PD, Hennepin County Government Center security (also in house county), and these 2 Hannon Officers. They were only 2, but were a big help and didn't pull any kind of crap like that. And, if I remember correctly, one of them was an Lt...
              Apparently a HUGE cop wannabe...

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              • #8
                Biggest issue I ever had was sub-sub-sub contracting by a security company and finding out that the bloke with the big mouth is the only 1 who speaks English or was a supervisor before hand, forgetting that you wear the same uniform as me and I hold rank as Site Manager or such - you work with me and for me - not for yourself or your company. If a company supervisor comes along and asks you to do something you are expected to do it, not pull rank or tell me you are beyond doing it as a manager.

                One company here got their backside kicked by the police when during a special event night, some of their staff were heard addressing people as Sergeant, Captain and Colonel (yes I am serious) which is a big no no as is impersonating ranks like that with stripes and stars (ways to get around it). The owner has never been in the miltary and was just a site guard for 10 years before opening up his business. He was fined heavily for it and had his company licence voided as his stationery, letterhead and SOP's all hand military ranks for their assigned leaders.
                "Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer" Sun Tzu

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
                  I've had the opposite happen, actually. A short-call (off-duty) police officer assigned to our contract security force. While everyone would automatically say, "Oh, he's a cop, he must automatically be in charge of you guys," he was not. His sole purpose was to sit out in his patrol car in a lot and guard some cars. The client had a bunch of very expensive cars, and the insurance company wanted a police officer guarding them.

                  The officer could not comprehend that as the client point of contact (it even said it on the sheet that the guard supervisor was the POC), he took orders from the security guard (me).

                  To the tune of disappearing, etc. Finally had to call a police sergeant to talk to the guy.
                  That is not the"opposite" of my sitution, it's the same thing.

                  My "authority" over contractors has nothing to do with being Campus Police, it has everything to do with me being a proprietary employee of that contractor's cleint, being empowered by that Client (the college) to supervise the contractor.

                  It's like when i work off duty, the Store manager is my PoC, but for all intents and purposes I follow the direction of the LP manager. It's only when a public offense occurs that I become "in charge", and only for the durtation of that specific incident. If the matter is non-criminal the LP manager is always in charge.
                  ~Black Caesar~
                  Corbier's Commandos

                  " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CorpSec View Post
                    I got a kick out of that story. I have never really been a fan of the military rank system for security. I prefer the supervisor, manager, director titles since they translate over to business a lot more readily than Sergeant, Lieutenant, Captain, etc.

                    Everybody knows what a supervisor or manager is but a lot of people would be clueless as to the various military ranks.
                    Heh, as a former Sgt Maj. of Security, I agree wholeheartedly. Truth be told, I like the police rank system of commonwealth countries (constable, inspector, superintendant ect ect, only military sounding rank they us is usuallt sergent) more than our paramilitary rank system. Less confusion. And less pretentious as well, I can't STAND the sight of "4 Star General" Police Chiefs in charge of 5 man town PDs lol. Our Chief wears 1 gold Star when in Uniform, and hell he thinks that's a bit much .

                    For example, I'm a Corporal. In my agency Corp. is just a "senior grade of patrolman with special responsibilities" as it is with Dallas PD and others. In some (usually small town) agencies, Corporal is an actual supervisory posistion, and in yet others, they have no Corporals, but grant FTOs the "rank" Senior Officer, Officer 1st class or whatever. So you never know what you are going to get. My Stipes look pretty on my Uniform, but I'd have prefered simply "Senior Officer" to Corporal.

                    Oh and a fun Trivia fact. The Dallas County Sheriff doesn't have Corporals, their FTOs and such are just called "FTO" or whatever. But up till around 1985 Deputies that were FTOs or Detectives or whatever wore Corporal Stripes when in Uniform but the rank was called "Lance Sergeant". LSgts were not supervisors. Talk about confusing lol.
                    Last edited by Black Caesar; 01-25-2008, 03:23 AM.
                    ~Black Caesar~
                    Corbier's Commandos

                    " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      We are in house but some tenants in the mall contract their security most times for after hours activities instead of hiring us. However, once that contract officer steps out of that store, he is in our mall and we are in charge. We never had a problem with them before.
                      "I am not a hero. I am a silent guardian, a watchful protector"

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                      • #12
                        BC our police ranks are:

                        Constable
                        Constable 1st Class
                        Senior Constable
                        Leading Senior Constable (2 stripes and 2 bars) which is a new rank due to people who should be Sergeant but not having vacancies in the ranks
                        Sergeant
                        Senior Sergeant (3 stripes and crown)
                        Inspector (3 stars in a row) a Sir rank
                        Chief Inspector
                        Superintendant (usually a local area commander),
                        Chief Superintendant (the regional commander)
                        Deputy Commissioner
                        Assistant Commissioner
                        Commissioner
                        Minister for BS ......... oops I mean the Police Minister.

                        Our uniform guards for the transit wannabe with limited power are

                        Transit Officer
                        Transit Officer 1 (1 stripe)
                        Senior Transit Officer (2 stripes)
                        Transit Team Leader (3 stripes)
                        Operations Inspector (3 stars)
                        Deputy Principal Transit Officer (crown)
                        Principal Transit Officer

                        Hence the confusion involved and the hatred for the transit officers who are pathetic and despite all their training are glorified ticket inspectors. I would love to see U-tube have them on tv for the way they handcuff in packs of wolves.
                        "Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer" Sun Tzu

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                        • #13
                          To be honest, I don't understand what the problem was.

                          He had a bit of an attitude, but that was about it. Him asking to be called Sargent, likely like his own job has, is not that big of a deal. As well, for most security jobs (in Canada, at least), the officer is never to be ordered around except by his supervisor. So, on our rules, he didn't have to obey you when you asked him to escort her through the site. In fact, by our rules, he'd have had the authority on the property because he's the one assigned to it.

                          I'm not saying you were wrong. It's just apparently different in the USA.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Nauticus View Post
                            To be honest, I don't understand what the problem was.

                            He had a bit of an attitude, but that was about it. Him asking to be called Sargent, likely like his own job has, is not that big of a deal. As well, for most security jobs (in Canada, at least), the officer is never to be ordered around except by his supervisor. So, on our rules, he didn't have to obey you when you asked him to escort her through the site. In fact, by our rules, he'd have had the authority on the property because he's the one assigned to it.

                            I'm not saying you were wrong. It's just apparently different in the USA.
                            It's all about who signs the check. I can tell a contract plumber to take his shoes off before he comes into my house. He then has to do it if he wan't me to use his company. It doesnt make me his supervisor though, Its called CUSTOMER SERVICE.
                            We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.
                            -George Orwell

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Nauticus View Post
                              To be honest, I don't understand what the problem was.

                              He had a bit of an attitude, but that was about it. Him asking to be called Sargent, likely like his own job has, is not that big of a deal. As well, for most security jobs (in Canada, at least), the officer is never to be ordered around except by his supervisor. So, on our rules, he didn't have to obey you when you asked him to escort her through the site. In fact, by our rules, he'd have had the authority on the property because he's the one assigned to it.

                              I'm not saying you were wrong. It's just apparently different in the USA.
                              So what do you Canadians do on a 1 officer contract. So no Canadian S/O takes order from the client even when there is no company supervisor at his post? Why would anyone hire security under those rules? Does the client have to call the S/Os office every time that want them to unlock a door for someone?

                              I am a representative of that guys client, the contract that guy's company signed says he will directly report and take direction from any duly appointed client representative (in our case, the campus police, which the college administration has tasked with administering the contract) while on duty and on property belonging to the client. EDIT: It's the same as how it was when I worked on a GSA contract at the Federal building.

                              We had our own chain of command (ofc. sgt. lt. capt.) but the Federal Protective Service Police Officers could direct our actions regardless of rank. Normally the FPS officer would try to use the Security Chain of command (pass order to the account manager to pass down), but that was courtesy, not required. No one , not even out Sgts or Lts complained with a FPS Police Officer gave an order at a check point, it was understood that we were expected to follow those orders.

                              I have a hard time believing that Canadian S/Os have more power on property than the client (in this case, represented by me).

                              The "sergeant" stuff in my story is just to illustrate what a tool this guy was. I could have demanded he call me Corporal, or even "sir" since I was his duly assigned direct supervisor, but not being a tool I didn't.
                              Last edited by Black Caesar; 01-28-2008, 04:21 AM.
                              ~Black Caesar~
                              Corbier's Commandos

                              " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

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