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  • To the office first (a rant)

    Ok we just started a new policy in our company that all employees must come to the office and clock in before their shift, however it states in the SOP's that you will not be paid for driving time (15 minutes exactly) to and from post. Also I must pass ALL of the posts on my way to the office to clock in, this is because I live south of Austin all of the posts are IN Austin and the office is north of Austin . Just to kinda give you a breakdown of my night here it is.

    Drive from my house past the post I will work to the office where I will clock in (but subtract 15 min because "we dont pay driving time") then drive back down to the post, at the end of my shift drive back to the office (again not getting paid because "we dont pay driving time") clock out and drive home PAST the post again.

    I figure its my responsibility to get to post so I wont factor any time for that but beyond that I loose an extra $20-$30 per night in time and millage because I have to drive to the office and clock in. If it was to pick up a patrol car or he would actually pay me from when I clock in to when I clock out I would still be pissed but I could deal with it. Am I wrong for being pissed?

    *Edit to add* I don't just want to complain I actually want to come up with a solution to the problem. This came about because people were leaving the post early or showing up late and not marking it down on their time sheets. I will admit this f**cks the owner down but his solution f**cks all of the guards and even us supervisors down to. We also don't have enough manpower for supervisors to be out checking guards every night.
    Last edited by ChuckyZ73; 01-20-2008, 07:07 AM. Reason: add information

  • #2
    Why do the people that perform at acceptable levels have to pay (time & gas) for the few who do not?

    If the sites are controlled with access cards / cameras you should be able to prove some level of trustworthieness (is that a word). Have your new people or people who do not show up on time prove them selves capable. Could be a class type system where you progress / work to higher trust level with less accountablity.
    Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted.
    Groucho Marx

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by ChuckyZ73 View Post
      Ok we just started a new policy in our company that all employees must come to the office and clock in before their shift, however it states in the SOP's that you will not be paid for driving time (15 minutes exactly) to and from post. Also I must pass ALL of the posts on my way to the office to clock in, this is because I live south of Austin all of the posts are IN Austin and the office is north of Austin . Just to kinda give you a breakdown of my night here it is.

      Drive from my house past the post I will work to the office where I will clock in (but subtract 15 min because "we dont pay driving time") then drive back down to the post, at the end of my shift drive back to the office (again not getting paid because "we dont pay driving time") clock out and drive home PAST the post again.

      I figure its my responsibility to get to post so I wont factor any time for that but beyond that I loose an extra $20-$30 per night in time and millage because I have to drive to the office and clock in. If it was to pick up a patrol car or he would actually pay me from when I clock in to when I clock out I would still be pissed but I could deal with it. Am I wrong for being pissed?

      *Edit to add* I don't just want to complain I actually want to come up with a solution to the problem. This came about because people were leaving the post early or showing up late and not marking it down on their time sheets. I will admit this f**cks the owner down but his solution f**cks all of the guards and even us supervisors down to. We also don't have enough manpower for supervisors to be out checking guards every night.
      I am questioning whether this policy would pass muster with most state wage & hour laws. If the employer requires you to present in person to a specific company location in order to achieve ANY JOB-RELATED FUNCTION, including clocking in, you would be considered to be "on the clock" as of that moment. (Employers at large plants have tried this little trick, claiming they shouldn't have to pay people for the 15 minutes it takes them to walk from the time clock to their desks or the factory floor. Such employers have been ordered to pay the employee from the moment they clock in, so some of them responded by placing time clocks closer to the employee's work stations. The equivalent for you would be your employer implementing a "remote" clock-in system, of which there are MANY available - using the Internet as well as phone-in systems. Since such systems are available to your employer, I really question that this current policy will fly at all with your state labor department.)

      The above is particularly true if you would normally need to perform any other work-related activities while at the main office in addition to clocking in, such as checking the bulletin board for employee notices, receiving instructions from superiors, engaging in job-related matters (e.g., discussing your health benefits or other issues with HR), replenishing supplies or equipment, turning in shift reports or expense forms, or performing any other job-related activity. Even if the "activity" is something as casual as a superior casting an eye over your uniform for compliance with company requirements, or commenting on the action you took with a car prowler at the site last night...it's job-related.

      The basic rule is: Once you're on the clock, you're on the clock from that moment until you clock out, even when not specifically "within the confines" of the employer's place of business. As an employer, I cannot impose a "time penalty" on you for complying with my own job-related requirements merely because they delay you from reaching your assigned post. In fact, I have given you two daily "assigned locations" - first the assignment to the main office to accomplish clock-in plus <whatever else>, and then the assignment to the site thereafter. It's no different than if I sent you to Site B but asked you to stop off at Site A first to check on the officer posted there.

      A good analogy would be a police department. My "assigned post" was my patrol beat, but that didn't mean the department didn't have to pay me for the time I was in the shift roll call meeting, or for the time it took me to pick up my squad, check out the equipment, and drive to my beat!

      Ridiculous. Contact your state labor or "wage and hour" department pronto!!
      Last edited by SecTrainer; 01-20-2008, 09:41 AM.
      "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

      "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

      "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

      "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

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      • #4
        At my last job my relief came at least 10 minutes after 6am every morning, where he should be there at 5:50-5:55 so be debriefed. Yet if I show up only a minute before shift start I get complained to by the guys who get there 10 minutes late. Suffice to say glad I'm not there anymore.
        -Protect and Serve-

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        • #5
          Well, the fact is, being late and leaving early is a big part of security. I support that idea to solve that problem. If you have a better solution, your management would like to hear it.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Nauticus View Post
            Well, the fact is, being late and leaving early is a big part of security. I support that idea to solve that problem. If you have a better solution, your management would like to hear it.
            How is being late and leaving early a big part of Security?
            -Protect and Serve-

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            • #7
              check your local labor code

              My opinion is same as SecTrainer.

              I don't think it is what we think or What we want.
              I think it is matter of how your local law regulated.

              I don't know other state's labor code, but in California, Employer has to pay you from Clock in to Clock out.
              If you go remote site (assigned post) directly, then work 8 hours.
              let's say 09:00 to 18:00 (because 15 min x 2 + 30 min non-pay mandatory break)
              Employer has to pay only 8 hours even you get there 08:45 then left 18:15.

              But if you clock in at office 08:45 then go work site at 09:00, you finish 18:00 at site but clock out at office 18:15.
              Employer has to pay you 08:45 to 17:15 which is 8 regular pay + 0.5 hour x 1.5 overtime.

              Between office to work site is not commute.
              You are not allowed to shopping or stop at Gym between work site and office.
              (if it's commute, you may)
              As SecTrainer wrote, it is travel time between two assignment location within work hour.(for at least in California)

              time card is double edged blade for Employer.
              They try to control employee but it might hurt employer himself financially.
              It happened to Limo industry in California too.
              chauffeur use to directly go to first pick up and directry home after last job (They take limo home).
              Employer pay from first pick up time to last job's drop time.
              Because before fist pick up and after last drop is commute time to and from home.
              Employee can take kids school or go gym whatever they want to do after last drop or before first pick up.

              then Employer change policy to clock in and out at office.
              Company's labor cost goes more than they expected because overtime calculation.
              and guess what happend, they start coming earlier than they should and punch in, they leave later than they should and punch out.
              Because employee know employer has to pay by time card, then they get few $ more income than before (mostly overtime).

              I think Best solution for both of you is set up time card at work site. depend on how your state's labor code.
              Last edited by Limo LA; 01-20-2008, 04:02 PM.
              Not many but few chauffeurs are armed to protect clients.

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              • #8
                A company I used to work for had a special telephone number designated for calling in/ out from your shift. You got to your assigned post, called the number, gave your name, employee number, post site, and time of call. At the end of the shift, you did the same prior to leaving. In the morning, the receptionist would listen to the messages and cross referenced the messages with the Caller ID log to ensure you were calling from the post, rather than a cell phone or other phone. Then, once a week, you had to come into the office before they processed payroll to verify your hours and sign off on your time sheet prior to them submitting your hours. This approach is a bit costly, since they're paying for an extra phone line and time consuming because the receptionist has to catelogue all the messages, but it might be a solution to your problem . . .
                The law is reason free from passion." -- Aristotle

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                • #9
                  Well its not just the time spent driving but its also the extra miles I have to put on my truck (at 13 MPG this sucks) to accomplish this versus going strait to post or even going to the office to pick up a patrol car. Both of which I would do absolutely no complaints. But he said he cant have me not clock in and make everyone else clock in. He also said I not longer am allowed to drive a patrol car because of "unacceptable millage". This is because on ONE occasion I was VERY pro-active and put 100 miles on the car in one night, versus all the other guards/supervisors that spend most of the night sitting on their ass.

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                  • #10
                    [QUOTE= He also said I not longer am allowed to drive a patrol car because of "unacceptable millage". This is because on ONE occasion I was VERY pro-active and put 100 miles on the car in one night, versus all the other guards/supervisors that spend most of the night sitting on their ass.[/QUOTE]

                    First, for us, 100 miles is nothing for a night.

                    The sad thing is, it sounds like the clients are also getting screwed since everyone is sitting on their rump and not conducting their patrols.

                    Sounds like your "boss" is doing pretty good for himself if he has found a way to get an extra 15-30 minutes out of the employees for free and charging for patrols that are not getting done.

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                    • #11
                      Sounds like a good scam set up by the Supervisor to get 30 mins more from you each night. Many people finish in field or will swap over at a designated point and the only time this is not feasible is when an officer is attested for duty (ie. high risk area) before their supervisor. 30 mins a day seems stupid as if 4 officers were signing off, this idiot should get off his rump and visit you at your site to sign you off.

                      Remote sign ons were always confirmed by phone ID when someone called in on duty and when they left as well. During a high risk job, we always used the fax machine to send off 2 hour welfare checks to head office together with 1 hour welfare checks to Command and Control.

                      I can't see why you need to sign off at the office when your supervisor could be up there, check on your fitness for duty (do you have shoes on) and then go back to the office. That is HIS/HER job not yours.
                      "Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer" Sun Tzu

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                      • #12
                        Milage

                        I don't know what state you live (TX?), but again, you should check with State Labor department.

                        "After" you clock in, time and mileage is "Work".
                        I think It have to be paid or reimbursed in many states.

                        When you go directly to post, between your home and post was "Commute".

                        Now, your commute is between your home and Office.
                        and between office and post (after you clock in) is NOT commute anymore.
                        That's why many company tell employee to go directly to post location. because they don't want to waste extra labor cost.

                        If you use your own truck to go assigned location AFTER you clock in, it is "Using Personal vehicle for work (non commute use)".

                        If your company won't reimburse you mileage (sounds like they won't), You can claim to your Income tax return as "Use of personal vehicle for work" $0.48.50 / Mile.
                        But make sure you keep "Written" log for that and don't include commuting miles (for IRS audit).

                        Normally,
                        your home to office (commute, no pay no mileage)
                        office to assigned location (work, pay)
                        move to 2nd location (work, pay)
                        move to 3rd location (work,pay)
                        assigned location to Office (work,pay)
                        office to home (commute, No pay no mileage)

                        if they don't provide transportation in working hours and you have to move point A to point B, you can use bus (sub way) and spend 1 hour to change location (of course with-pay).
                        or Employer may beg you (you can deny)to use your own vehicle and reimburse $ 0.48.50 / mile, because they can save 45 min of labor cost if you use your own truck.
                        or employer can tell you "Do not use your own vehicle (Except commute)" because workers comp or company liability issue.
                        in that case campany have to provide you transportation or use public transportation and you get paid for hours spend in bus.

                        if they fire you because you deny to use your own vehicle for work (after you clock in), you can claim to labor department for illegal termination (again, depend on what state you live)
                        Last edited by Limo LA; 01-20-2008, 08:51 PM.
                        Not many but few chauffeurs are armed to protect clients.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I worked a post for a couple of years that had a cold start and a cold end. It was from 1700 to 0100. After they got the radio that they kept in an electrical closet stolen, they required us to go to the "office" and retrieve our radio, keys, and access card at the start of each shift and drop them off at the end of each shift.

                          It wasn't too bad since the office was maybe five minutes away from my post. However, I considered my day starting and ending at the office. That meant that on a lot of days after picking up my gear and getting briefed of any new info at the office, I would arrive at post at 1710 or 1715. I would also leave my post with plenty of time to spare so I would be at the office and have everything dropped off and put away by 0100.

                          In your case, I think your company is probably doing something illegal. As mentioned, there are a lot of ways to remotely "clock in".

                          But, beware that the while the squeaky wheel gets the grease, it is also the first one that gets replaced. If the pay and other working conditions are good or if jobs in your area are tough to find, you have to decide whether or not to fight this battle.

                          If a lot of employees have to do this same thing, then it would be pretty easy for you to lodge a complaint without the owner finding out. However, I wouldn't tell ANYONE at work what I did since you can be sure that somehow it would get back to the boss.

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                          • #14
                            100 miles is 160 km and on a 12 hour night shift over a site with a 1 mile (I measured it 1 night) drivable perimter with the speed limit to 15 mph we would do almost 150 mph and that is on 1 site only. Some bludgers would do 50 mph and others would rack up 80 - 100miles per 12 hour shift. Running my patrol cars we would expect 300 miles in 12 hours usually due to the size of the runs and number of visits.

                            Client is paid for night patrols and they are not getting the service. If the company is so tight with $$$ then go for a 3 cylinder Metro like car that is for high use patrols (not my choice). With no secure areas for our equipment working the buses, it was decided to secure our equipment at the shopfront police station - until it was knocked off 1 night so I kept my own company radio at home and charged it from home.
                            "Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer" Sun Tzu

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                            • #15
                              I spoke to him about it and he said if I want I will be payed my time going to and from the office/post. BUT all the little "freebies" and "getting away with stuff" will end these are little things like being allowed to leave post to get a soda or a snack and being on a computer ect. He says he does not see an issue because in this company officers don't do reports or anything like that so in his eyes we are getting away with murder.

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