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  • #16
    Different terms here - a security guard works at a bank or armoured truck - a security officer does not the non-dirty work. We have police officers but they are called Constantables and you can be member of the Police Force now not the Police Service or Police.

    I used to get dirty being called a security guard as I would point out - I never worked inside a bank once or did anymore than a few cash truck runs many years ago. Either way - 2 blokes were killed on duty - whether security or police or whatever fancy title used - 2 people were killed doing their duty and that is 2 families who don't have a father, brother, husband, boy friend, colleague, neighbour or son forever.

    I feel sorry for their respective families, friends and colleagues.
    "Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer" Sun Tzu

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    • #17
      Concerning not getting the same respect when killed while on duty.....police are seen (rightfully so or not) as agents of a free society, given their power through the democratic process. Security is seen as agents of private entities, protecting the profits of the "haves" rather than a free society in general. This is the same with PMCs overseas as contrasted with regular military.
      formerly C&A

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      • #18
        Originally posted by NRM_Oz View Post

        They are still classified as on duty and wearing the same uniform and firearms as per usual just assigned specific tasks.
        I think peace officer security (whatever it's called) sent by department with full uniform is "On Duty" to me.
        It's just Non-regular assignment and he Voluntarily took assignment.

        Here In California, active, retired or level 1,2,3 reserved peace officer work civilian security company at off-duty, they have to have BSIS security guard card (training and fingerprint waived. just registration and pay fee) also they have to have BSIS firearm permit (training and fingerprint waived).
        :BSIS=Breau of Security and Investigative Service:

        also when they work for civilian security company , even police officers have 24 hour police power, part of their power and privilege reduced to civilian security because they are working as civilian security.

        but if If they work through department (off-duty) with police uniform, they don't need BSIS guard card nor BSIS firearm permit because they are in Police uniform sent by police department with full police power and privilege.

        **** from CA BSIS web site ****
        IMPORTANT NOTICE:
        Active duty peace officers should exercise caution when identifying themselves as peace officers while working off-duty as bodyguards or security officers. This is a very complex issue involving the interplay of Penal Code Section 70, case law and the B&P Code.

        The general rule that a peace officer is a peace officer 24 hours a day on or off-duty may NOT apply when a peace officer is working off-duty out of uniform. You are advised to seek legal advice and follow the directions of your local law enforcement agency. You are also advised to familiarize yourself with Melendez v City of Los Angeles (1998) 63 Cal. App. 4th I; 73 Cal. Rpts. 2d 469.

        ****
        http://www.bsis.ca.gov/customer_serv..._officer.shtml

        By the way,
        Japanese police (all public workers) are not allowed to work anyone else but police department by law.
        and Police department do not take civilian company's job order.
        sometimes, complicated issue comes up when police officer live with parents and they have business at home (store or farm, etc).
        off duty P/O (or even school teacher, any public worker) stand at casher of his own parents's store attatched to house, it violate public worker's code.
        (they can not help parents's farm neither, but they can work at non profitable hobby farm or ranch)
        Last edited by Limo LA; 01-18-2008, 01:05 AM.
        Not many but few chauffeurs are armed to protect clients.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Black Caesar View Post
          This gonna turn into another "we're jealous of what the police can do and they get respect that security doesn't/ it's so unfair call the whaaambulance!!!!" thing is it? Sorry to say my friend, but this posting comes of as whiny in the extreme.

          As I tell my own co-workers (who are duly commissioned fully empowered academy trained Texas Peace Officers like any other Police in the state, just of the much maligned and less appreciated "Campus" variety) "instead of "hating" on the city cops just because people don't give you what you think is a "proper" amount of "PO-PO respect", if it bothers you so much go be the city police yourself, problem solved".
          Some security operations recruit directly out of the academy, targeting new career police officers. These guys work part time with a municipal PD, full time (or part) with the security company, until they have the time in to get hired on full time with the police. So in this case there should be no issue with respect, everyone has to start somewhere and respect comes in stages as one advances through their career. Beyond that are often career "enlisted" security guards who never really get promoted and never make it to anything like the police.

          1st, there have been plenty of times where slain or grievously wounded private security officers have been hailed as heroes in the press, I can recall a few. Maybe doesn't happen as much as it should, but people shouldn't do a job for glory anyway.
          Dying while protecting or generating private profit has never been seen as glorious or worthy of memorial.

          Lastly, the implication in these kinds of "rants" always revolve around the idea that the police are "encroaching" on security. I find the whole idea irritating, because private security spends a great deal of time money and effort trying to encroach on the "territory" of Public Safety and Law Enforcement. if the police should "stay in their place and not do security", then private security should do the same and totally restrict itself to "staying in it's place".
          My only problem with police "encroaching" on security is when a government agent unreasonably encroaches, limits, harms or otherwise interferes with private liberty. Unreasonable meaning the act will not reasonably result in any meaningful increase or safeguard of that liberty- private liberty being the only meaningful outcome of public service in a free society. That liberty IS the "public good".

          That means no guns (because only the police carry guns right lol), no "police style uniforms with badges that look like police", no "squad cars" (with variations of the protect and serve motto and call 911 stickers on them), no powers of arrest, no "public servant" protections (here in Texas, assaulting a Security Officer is the same as assaulting a firefighter or policeman), no extra-legal authority what-so-ever like the Deputy Sheriff Powers of South Carolina S/Os, or the quasi police powers of some Missouri S/Os, or the full blown Private Police like in DC, Ohio, and North Carolina among others ect ect ect ect.
          I never liked security uniforms etc that look like police uniforms anyways. We wear BDUs from head to toe and badges only when we are on company property.

          As far as guns and other weapons go, second amendment. Not to mention all of the "castle laws" and "stand your ground" passed and being passed throughout the states. Extra legal protections are things we don't enjoy in my state anyways so that makes no difference to me.

          Of course, the very idea is foolish, likewise I think the jealousy coming (again on this board, it seems to never end) at individual police officers for just trying to make ends meet just like you are is just as bad.
          Yes, jealousy is stupid.


          I work off duty at a grocery store on Saturdays, in uniform, as is my right and privilege (being exempt from the Texas Private Security act) as a peace officer. I don't complain about the S/Os who work the parking lot being there, even when they make arrests or chase people, I help them, we're supposed to be on the same team. But some of them have complained about ME being there (nice and warm in the building with the LP guys) in a Police Uniform getting paid more than them.

          Oddly they don't complain when I'm pulling drunks from the bar across the street off their backs, or when I go outside so they can go, one at a time, into the store for a kind of semi-break and warm up even though I'm not really supposed to, but oh well.........
          I'll admit I complain allot about police, probably too much. My issue only comes when they get in the way of me doing my job. I've learned over time through working more and more with them, that much of what I complain about is due to unfamiliarity. Police departments we work with allot are enormous assets, they come right away when called, patrol sites with us if not doing something more important, and basically trust us and are willing to share information. Most of all they do not commandeer the situation and do stupid things in dangerous places. But that is something that is earned over time after they have been around you for awhile.

          What I won't do (complaint time) is call an unfamiliar police department unless 1. The situation is resolved and I have maintained control the entire time (after an apprehension etc) 2. The situation is completely and totally out of my control and real emergency personnel are required.

          Simply because once an unfamiliar LEO/PD shows up, you forfeit all control over to them and they will refuse to listen and will simply do what they think needs to be done. That is fine if a group of drunks are beating on me in the street. It is not fine when cruisers (or ambulances or fire trucks) come hard charging into an electrical transmission station with over a million kv in the lines and equipment, tens of thousands of gallons of explosive fuel and ceramic insulation that can explode doing damage that makes a grenade look like a toy. Imagine hundreds of M67 grenades like beads on ropes strung 9 to 20 feet from the ground, the rope criss crossing everything overhead. I've seen firemen try to spray water on a burning transformer in a substation before. They don't want to hear that they can't do that. The police will try to get you away from the firemen when you approach to warn them. Likewise the police and ems don't want to hear that you have to escort them every step of the way through the yard, telling them exactly where they go and where they can't go. They simply do not like being told what to do, even if it can save their lives and the lives of everyone in the yard. You don't know how many times the police have responded to something in a substation yard with me on site and later my boss tells me, "Why did you let them in? You could have killed them." Like bulls charging through a china shop, but if one piece of china is upset everyone in the shop dies.

          That s*&t just burns me up.

          Theres the rant you were looking for
          Last edited by junkyarddog; 01-18-2008, 01:33 AM.
          formerly C&A

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          • #20
            You shouldn't even be near those neighborhoods in Decatur, GA, much less in any uniform. Your life is in your hands if you have any money on you.

            From Decatur to Jonesboro, there's 'corner's' everywhere selling anything they want to call dope. And if you look around and everyone disappears, you are about ready to get mugged. You better run and don't look back.

            Where's Sherman when you really need him? Police are afraid to go back in those neighborhoods without a full brigade of SWAT teams. Security guards, lol. Start chiselling their grave stone when they start. It will only be a matter of time.

            Comment


            • #21
              Correct info for California retired police officers.

              Limo LA, your post about guard training for active police officers, retired police officers, and active police reserves was incorrect regarding retired police officers (in California).

              Retired police officers have to take all required state classes for guards, including firearms training and qualifications, carrying O.C., and a baton.

              Honorably retired police officers, who's department (that they retired from) allows them to carry concealed weapons, can carry a concealed weapon (firearm, not a baton, go figure) while working security, but they still have to have the state guard card and exposed firearms permit issued through BSIS.

              It is a strange requirement, as my issued P.D. identification card is stamped "authorized to carry a concealed weapon," and no CCW is needed. But I need the BSIS firearms permit to carry a firearm while working as a guard, even though the BSIS permit is for exposed carry only.

              Comment


              • #22
                Thank you for correcting my wrong info, bpdblue.
                I always think it is very important to correct someone's wrong info.
                Because we are here to find information.
                I've never take anything personally.

                After you correct my wrong info, I found another wrong info in my post about Reserved Peace officer in California.

                Reserved P/O are not 24 hours P/O, are they?
                Most of them don't have firearm endorsement.
                I think they have to be on duty in PD uniform, or on duty S/O with BSIS fire permit to carry weapon.
                and Reserve P/O are not HR218.
                (Please correct me again, if I am wrong)

                I think CA's PC and B&P code have a lot of inconsistency and double standard.
                (most of laws are. even California PC has mis-spelled name of weapon).
                I imagine you must be very stressful as P/O and S/O.
                California P/O must enforce the law and civilian S/O may not enforce the public law other than related to duty, because S/O's duty is just follow the contract with client and you should not do something else while S/O duty.

                My understanding is that BSIS wants to control "Anybody" who perform security job.
                I wonder if someone has CCW for 40cal, and his BSIS permit doesn't show 40cal, what violation would that be....

                When I read other topic (duty weapon topic), some states limit to S/O to carry specific caliber.
                I think even if S/O has CCW for 45cal, he can't carry 45 on duty in that state.
                I wonder if he carry 45 concealed and duty caliber exposed, is it illegal ?
                Well, it's off the topic of this thread.
                Last edited by Limo LA; 01-18-2008, 08:40 PM.
                Not many but few chauffeurs are armed to protect clients.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Black Caesar View Post
                  This gonna turn into another "we're jealous of what the police can do and they get respect that security doesn't/ it's so unfair call the whaaambulance!!!!" thing is it? ......
                  Only if you help.

                  Sorry, I couldn't resist.
                  Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

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                  • #24
                    This has been a terrible year for LE. I feel bad about it and hope that these criminals get the maximum sentence.
                    Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by bpdblue View Post
                      Limo LA, your post about guard training for active police officers, retired police officers, and active police reserves was incorrect regarding retired police officers (in California).

                      Retired police officers have to take all required state classes for guards, including firearms training and qualifications, carrying O.C., and a baton.

                      Honorably retired police officers, who's department (that they retired from) allows them to carry concealed weapons, can carry a concealed weapon (firearm, not a baton, go figure) while working security, but they still have to have the state guard card and exposed firearms permit issued through BSIS.

                      It is a strange requirement, as my issued P.D. identification card is stamped "authorized to carry a concealed weapon," and no CCW is needed. But I need the BSIS firearms permit to carry a firearm while working as a guard, even though the BSIS permit is for exposed carry only.
                      The requirement of anyone, including a police officer, to have a 'security firearms permit' is usually the work of legislators being advised by the model bill of the International Association of Security and Investigatory Regulators.

                      The idea is, quite frankly, that you need to be taught how to use your weapon not as a private citizen or a police officer, but as a security guard.

                      This allows the trainers to inject training relevant to your employer's needs.
                      Some Kind of Commando Leader

                      "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Mr. Security View Post
                        Only if you help.

                        Sorry, I couldn't resist.
                        So by responding to it and opposing it ,I'm helping it? Got it.

                        You will notice the the 1st post in this thread isn't mine.

                        Sorry, I have this habit of challenging double standards concerning police especially when they come from members of the one group on Earth (private security) who should be eternally sympathetic to others who wear uniforms and enforce rules.

                        Sorry, I couldn't help it either.......
                        ~Black Caesar~
                        Corbier's Commandos

                        " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
                          The requirement of anyone, including a police officer, to have a 'security firearms permit' is usually the work of legislators being advised by the model bill of the International Association of Security and Investigatory Regulators.

                          The idea is, quite frankly, that you need to be taught how to use your weapon not as a private citizen or a police officer, but as a security guard.

                          This allows the trainers to inject training relevant to your employer's needs.
                          They tried that here in Texas (among other things). Didn't fly because there is no situation where there would be a difference in how or when someone could use their weapon. Justification for Deadly Force is Justification whether one if a Police Officer or not, period. I couldn't believe it when I found out California LEOs have to jump through that kind of red tape just to work off duty.
                          ~Black Caesar~
                          Corbier's Commandos

                          " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            The fact that these guys died trying to "keep the lights on" should be the topic of this thread, not the fact that they are encroaching on our industry and lets whine about it. Show these Professionals the respect they deserve!!!

                            I ask the question, "Did this complex attempt to contract this job out and no company would take it becasue of the dangerous area it was in?

                            We don't know the answer , but we are quick to whine because that was not 2 private security officers that were ambushed and brutally murdered instead of 2 LEO's. The sad fact is, these guys died in a horrible way, and we are reduced to arguing why they were there.

                            I think one reason our industry has such a bad reputation is an enormous lack of professionalism and integrity.



                            Being a company owner and the active Patrol Supervisor for our company, I am going to reverse the rant for a minute and ask a couple of questions and give my opinions on these topics.

                            Why do they get a lot of these details instead of Private Security?

                            We should look at the fact that a lot of potential clients don't want to hire private security because of the reputation that our industry has built for itself. Lack of or very minimal state mandated training, lax or non-existent physical fitness standards, the site of the grossly unprofessional security guard with baggy pants, white tennis shoes and a kick-backed campaign hat.


                            I think these properties look for-Who will be the better deterrent?
                            A Law Enforcement Officer or the grossly overweight "Company X" armed guard that walks the halls of the Federal Building with a .38 who gets winded walking to the snack machine.



                            Law Enforcement Agencies do not actively advertise for "Off-Duty or Security Details".
                            Although alot of the Departments in our area does have someone at the agency who is tasked with accepting "security requests" and posting available "NOT MANDATORY" off-duty assignments.

                            A lot of times the local departments will call us and say they have a property owner who has requested "security details" and they do not have anyone to cover it and give us the contact info.



                            Lack of Mandated Training.

                            In Georgia, the state-mandated training for me to become a registered security officer to carry a firearm is only 16 hours. 16 hours is just enough time for Officer John Wayne to learn how to load the thing and qualify.

                            The majority of the companies that I have seen around and talked to (you can get a lot of information from someone while in street clothes) have either provided minimal or no training to their officers, and continuing education is non-existent.

                            What can we do to change our reputation, to get these jobs that you really don't want, but want to complain about?

                            1. Perform a personal inventory.
                            a. What does my uniform look like?
                            b. Are my boots/shoes shined?
                            c. Do I need a haircut or need to shave?

                            2. Request Training and Continuing Education from your Employer.
                            a. Ensure you get all state mandated training you are required.
                            b. Push your employer to implement a monthly continuing eduaction. (Are you qualified to take on the role of "Training Officer".) If so, pitch the idea to your employer with you as the new Training Officer.

                            3. Stop bashing LEO's. Do you really want their respect?
                            Or is it much easier to complain and moan about them when your identity is hidden on the internet? Because I am willing to bet my firstborn child when they come on your post the majority of the complainers and whiners kiss their boots and follow them like a puppy.

                            4. Weed out unprofessional officers/guards at your post and in the company.
                            Report your co-workers sleeping, stealing, bad attitudes, un-professionalism, etc. Get rid of them and hire better candidates. Security pay is not the best, but there are people out their that want a job and want to do it well. Find them and try to recruit them.

                            5. Petition State Legislation for more stringent hiring and training standards.

                            6. Do your job.
                            a. Follow your post orders.

                            7. Stop doing dumb SH*T!!
                            a. Refer back to the 2 CA security officers that conducted the high speed pursuit with lights and sirens.


                            THE QUESTION IS, DO WE REALLY WANT TO PUSH LAW ENFORCEMENT OUT OF THE SECURITY WORLD?

                            If so, we need to do a lot of housecleaning and straighten OUR industry out.

                            You have the choice of sitting in front of your computer and whining about it, or getting off of your a$$ and doing something about it.



                            *My thoughts and prayers are with the families of these professionals who gave their lives and with the men and women of the Dekalb County Police Department.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Businesses and private organizations routinely ask my PD to provide security services; we do not solicit their business. Sometimes, said organizations will hire a private security company and the PD. Occasionally, we are not able to take a job and referred them to a reputable security company or another PD. The client is clear that we will act and dress as police officers and if that is a problem we decline the job. The last security detail I worked was at a mall and paid $50 (cash) an hour. Mall security was on duty but the client wanted the PD for some reason. They came to us, we didn’t go looking for it.
                              I believe I speak for everyone here sir, when I say, to Hell with our orders.
                              -Lieutenant Commander Data
                              sigpic

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                              • #30
                                Slightly off topic, but I am curious, eveyone is debation who can and cannot or should and should not be identified as "Officer". What is everyone's opinion on Correctional Officers?
                                "What if this is as good as it gets?" ~ Melvin Udall

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