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  • Limo LA
    replied
    Originally posted by jeff194307 View Post
    If you are trained and current with your training, you already know a martial art because that is where the PR-24 came from.
    Yes, it came from Karate (actually Ryukyu-budo) Tonfa.
    I'm Black belt of Kendo (type of martial arts just like Tom Cruise practiced in Village with wood stick in movie last samurai ), Tonfa (PR24) is little different than kendo but still I love side handle baton.

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  • jeff194307
    replied
    After having worked at Pelican Bay Prison, I am a firm believer in the PR-24. However I never walked around with it in my hand except when escorting inmates. If you are trained and current with your training, you already know a martial art because that is where the PR-24 came from. You also if trained well can draw that PR very quickly and be ready for what ever occurs. I suspect that the ex con was intimidated nor so much from you having a PR as he was from having first hand knowledge of what that baton is capable of.

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  • OMG_Ihatethisjob
    replied
    Carry a side-handle baton, & mace as a non-lethal option.

    I've worked bars and high-risk post in the Los Angeles area. I've taken classes in psychology, and incorporated what I learned into my security work when I'm at a high-risk post.

    Your body language is very important. Observe the way Secret Service agents conduct themselves when they're in the public. They're constantly looking and scanning the crowd, and their heads are always panning left and right. This is the behaviour you should mimic, which I call "Secret Service" body language. Your potential trouble makers will size you up, and when they see you constantly watching everyone like a hawk, it will intimidate them to leave and find another place to cause havok without being interrupted by a guard who behaves like an off-duty police officer.

    Always look for behaviour that's outside the ordinary. In a bar, dance place, strip joint, etc... people are minding their own business, and focused on the show, or talking to a friend/acquintance. Your potential trouble maker will be looking at people and sizing up his next victim. When they see you looking in their direction, and realize you've put them on surveilance, they'll get up and leave, because your attention on them is giving them the creeps. Wear light-tinted glasses to hide your eyes. When trouble makers sized you up, they look for signs of fear, or that you're intimidated by the people and environment you're in. Show confidence in the way you walk; keep your shoulders straight as you walk. This will give the appearance you've had military training, and will lead trouble makers to conclude you're either ex-Marine, ex-Army, or ex-Navy Seals. Carry a baton, preferably a PR24 side-handle baton, which is much more versatile and effective than a collapsible or straight baton. When you're talking to possible gang members, the baton should be in your hands, and ready to strike if he makes a sudden attack. Having the baton out and in ready position will discourage people from lunging at you. If you need to patrol areas (on foot) that are potential ambush spots to get jumped, the baton is again in your hand, and ready to perry and stike as someone comes at you with a knife or blungering weapon. Be aware that a lot of handguns recovered from felony suspects are often stolen from armed security guards. This is why you're a target to get jumped at. If people attack you, its because they want to steal your gun, and use it to commit armed robbery. Know some basic martial arts to strike an attacker, and re-establish distance between you and your attacker. So long as he's at least 5 feet away from you, he can't strike at you.

    I assume you own a kevlar vest; if not, and $$ is an issue, go to Ebay and bid for a used level-3 vest. I had gotten one for $150, and it retailed for $500 new. The seller was an armor guard who decided to quit, and get into another line of work.

    At least you have a partner. When I had worked as an armed guard with Tandem Security (no longer in business) out of Santa Monica, CA, they sent me to some scary places by myself. My PR24 baton was out and in ready position when I did my foot patrol, and gang members seeing me with my baton already out, is what discourage them from jumping me. I once had a verbal altercation in an apartment with suspected drug dealers, and 3 of them had me surrounded. Again, no one made a move against me because my PR24 was out and in ready position. I walked past one guy to retreat, and he just stepped aside and let me through. Called Pomona PD, and they took 1 guy into custody for violating his parole terms. In conclusion, your body language, and having a PR24 baton, can mean the difference of discouraging felons from swooping down to gang up against you.
    Last edited by OMG_Ihatethisjob; 02-10-2008, 08:28 PM. Reason: Spelling, grammar, punctuation errors

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  • PAofficer
    replied
    Hello

    I have worked in some bad apartment complexes. I won't go over what the rest have stated, but I will leave you with this concern. Partners, learn your partner. The good and bad. I went through a time were we could not get any good people for my site. Guys with gun cards were one thing, guys with training is another. We had shots fired in our area 3-4 times a week. This fried one of my partners in 2 weeks. Had to send him home after he started the shift by saying I was trying to get him killed. He wanted to spend the shift in the office and do no patrols. Another guy would keep his pistol unloaded at home due to kids, more than once he walked worked without loading it because he forgot. Some guys don't have the skill to talk to people without reading them the riot act. It got to the point were I liked working alone. I would walk patrol and let them watch some CCTV.

    Learn your partner and "be safe out there"

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  • junkyarddog
    replied
    Originally posted by Tennsix View Post
    Indiana (my state) is one such state.
    Good deal!

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  • Tennsix
    replied
    The exception are States that have passed "Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground" laws, which state that when confronted with lethal force (in some circumstances) you may use lethal force in response even if there are other options. Here are summaries:
    Indiana (my state) is one such state.

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  • NRM_Oz
    replied
    Qualifying for my firearms licence again in 1993, I had a tough ex WO2 Army officer (think of R. Lee Emery and it was him but shorter). We discussed weapons retention and he `volunteered` me to be the agressor. Reaching for his .357 I don't recall much as he pushed me off left handed and I landing on my arse. We all drilled on that until we could twist, cover and defend our firearms. Every year I refused to be `volunteered again` but it did teach me importance of weapons retention.

    As was drummed into my head from day 1 - Q: Did you aim your firearm in order to kill Mr _______ ? A: My aim was to hit the target as I was trained to do.

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  • junkyarddog
    replied
    Originally posted by Tennsix View Post
    The concept of deadly force encompasses more than the use of a firearm. If deadly force is warranted, any device or means is acceptable. Run them over, cut them, hit them in the head with a baton, etc.
    Agreed. I've been focusing on the firearm as deadly force because it is the subject of the thread, and definitely something that justified use of lethal force. Pretty much automatically once you point it at someone.

    I think I follow you now but I disagree on two points.

    1. A person does not have to utilize lesser degrees of force before deciding on one that overpowers the threat. Generally speaking, a person may “one up” the level of force.

    2. What you describe might be company policy, not the law.
    Generally it seems where use of lethal force by a civilian is concerned, when confronted by lethal force, the civilian has a responsibility to flee IF POSSIBLE rather than use lethal force. That means if there is any way to save your life OTHER THAN using lethal force, you have to NOT use lethal force. They call call this "duty to retreat". Fail to follow that duty and your looking at homicide charges.

    The exception are States that have passed "Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground" laws, which state that when confronted with lethal force (in some circumstances) you may use lethal force in response even if there are other options. Here are summaries:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doctrine

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_retreat




    I don’t mean to come off obtusely. My attitude is sociable.
    I am exactly the same way. Glad we are on the same page with that.
    Last edited by junkyarddog; 01-24-2008, 08:46 PM.

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  • Tennsix
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Caesar View Post
    Twice so far for me over the last 10 yearsm once in my probie year, the other 4 years ago. One of those was off duty, which is why you won't see me working off duty gigs at Apt. complexes.

    Neiter one got my weapon of course the only thing that saved my skin are equal doses of "fell back on training" and "the Grace of God" lol. After the second time I wised up and now carry my duty knife on the left side.
    Mine was in 1988. I was wearing the old Border Patrol holster. He got a hand on my gun ripped it out of the holster. The gun fell to the ground and I hit him with all strength I could muster. When I picked up the gun I had every intention of shooting him but he gave up.

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  • Tennsix
    replied
    Originally posted by cocknaces View Post
    I don't see how they are flawed. I never said "only pull a gun if one is pulled on you", only that having a gun pulled on you is one of the few instances justifying using lethal force against someone else.



    This is why I stressed unarmed combat training. Armed only with a gun and no ground training, no OC, no taser and quite possibly also being out of shape is a bad bad bad situation.

    Good luck getting three perfect shots off before you are disarmed. Armed (especially weapon drawn) with no unarmed combat training and three guys against you....no thanks.

    We can always agree to disagree.
    The concept of deadly force encompasses more than the use of a firearm. If deadly force is warranted, any device or means is acceptable. Run them over, cut them, hit them in the head with a baton, etc.

    I think I follow you now but I disagree on two points.

    1. A person does not have to utilize lesser degrees of force before deciding on one that overpowers the threat. Generally speaking, a person may “one up” the level of force.

    2. What you describe might be company policy, not the law.


    I don’t mean to come off obtusely. My attitude is sociable.

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Caesar
    replied
    Originally posted by Tennsix View Post
    That has only happened to me once in 21 years. But that one time made quite an impression.
    Twice so far for me over the last 10 yearsm once in my probie year, the other 4 years ago. One of those was off duty, which is why you won't see me working off duty gigs at Apt. complexes.

    Neiter one got my weapon of course the only thing that saved my skin are equal doses of "fell back on training" and "the Grace of God" lol. After the second time I wised up and now carry my duty knife on the left side.

    Leave a comment:


  • junkyarddog
    replied
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
    You'll find a lot of that training in security companies. This is training based on reducing the company's liability, not protecting the guard.

    I.e. Don't unholster your gun till someone points a gun at you. Commonly known as, "Well, he may be dead, but at least he didn't kill a man with our company gun."
    Its not "don't pull the gun unless one is pulled on you" its "pull the gun only when under the threat of lethal force".

    I think we disagree more on the finer points than on the general idea of a force continuum. There does have to be a force continuum.

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  • junkyarddog
    replied
    Originally posted by Tennsix View Post
    Remember, the definition of deadly force is an act that presents the likelihood of serious bodily injury OR death. The policy and training standards you mentioned are flawed. Many a officer has been killed because they were afraid to aptly offset a deadly force situation.
    I don't see how they are flawed. I never said "only pull a gun if one is pulled on you", only that having a gun pulled on you is one of the few instances justifying using lethal force against someone else.

    I would not draw my sidearm until I perceived a threat. Ideally, I would be analyzing the situation prior to approaching the men. If I perceived a threat, I would not approach them alone. If am unable to avoid a confrontation and they communicate hostile intentions, I would consider my options (rather hastily). I could very well decide to draw down on the men. Even unarmed, three men can present a deadly threat to a lone officer. Bottom line, anyone that tries to take my gun is a dead man.

    I would rather be tried by twelve than carried by six.

    An afterthought. Many people think an officer is prohibited against utilizing deadly force against and unarmed assailant. One of my former trainees recently killed an armed unarmed man. The suspect was choking the officer. The officer was on the brink of unconsciousness when he drew his sidearm and shot the suspect. It was a justified homicide.
    This is why I stressed unarmed combat training. Armed only with a gun and no ground training, no OC, no taser and quite possibly also being out of shape is a bad bad bad situation.

    Good luck getting three perfect shots off before you are disarmed. Armed (especially weapon drawn) with no unarmed combat training and three guys against you....no thanks.

    We can always agree to disagree.

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  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    You'll find a lot of that training in security companies. This is training based on reducing the company's liability, not protecting the guard.

    I.e. Don't unholster your gun till someone points a gun at you. Commonly known as, "Well, he may be dead, but at least he didn't kill a man with our company gun."

    Leave a comment:


  • Tennsix
    replied
    Remember, the definition of deadly force is an act that presents the likelihood of serious bodily injury OR death. The policy and training standards you mentioned are flawed. Many a officer has been killed because they were afraid to aptly offset a deadly force situation.

    I would not draw my sidearm until I perceived a threat. Ideally, I would be analyzing the situation prior to approaching the men. If I perceived a threat, I would not approach them alone. If am unable to avoid a confrontation and they communicate hostile intentions, I would consider my options (rather hastily). I could very well decide to draw down on the men. Even unarmed, three men can present a deadly threat to a lone officer. Bottom line, anyone that tries to take my gun is a dead man.

    I would rather be tried by twelve than carried by six.

    An afterthought. Many people think an officer is prohibited against utilizing deadly force against and unarmed assailant. One of my former trainees recently killed an armed unarmed man. The suspect was choking the officer. The officer was on the brink of unconsciousness when he drew his sidearm and shot the suspect. It was a justified homicide.
    Last edited by Tennsix; 01-23-2008, 08:41 AM.

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