Hunters tresspassing....

[Alaska Security]

ehh, guess I was in a different army... i was issued ammo for everything and anything.

Hunters, deal with them all the time up here when it's season. Typically we'll do a 2 officer patrol when it comes opening season.

Don't want to leave or follow instructions? Troopers have quads and will arrest you.

[integrator97]

1 of my very first armed sites was working at a military post at "1 post" (outer security check point) for a military base. We had parking for civillian cars and visitors and they were then escorted to the entrance of the military base (MP and SP manned). I was issued with an ancient .22 rifle with NOT AMMO. The MP and SP were issued with the same rifle and they were dry as well since the powers that be demanded it be that way for non-war times. Duties included carrying the rifle for all vehicular and foot traffic and whenever I left the gate house. After 2 months of working 1 - 2 nights a week, I questioned the idea of armed officers, when an ex army shift colleague told me "it has been that way for years and the USA has been the same for years unless in time of war" (back in 1987). Shortly after it was taken back over by the military again for management as too many "things" were walking off base.

When I arrived at Concord, I was about the 20th sailor in the new Navy Security Force. Concord was actually the 1st to take over from the Marines. Anyway, when we actually shifted from Marine to Navy security, the first thing we did was load the weapons (none in the chamber though). This was coincidently, in 1987.

When we invaded Panama, soldiers from Fort Ord came up to get ammo and weapons, and proceed to Travis AFB. The guards the sent to pick up truckloads of grenades, ammo, and who knows what? Weapons, but no ammo. We sent armed escorts.

Who knows where they come up with stuff. My dad always said "common sense isn't all that common".

[NRM_Oz]

1 of my very first armed sites was working at a military post at "1 post" (outer security check point) for a military base. We had parking for civillian cars and visitors and they were then escorted to the entrance of the military base (MP and SP manned). I was issued with an ancient .22 rifle with NOT AMMO. The MP and SP were issued with the same rifle and they were dry as well since the powers that be demanded it be that way for non-war times. Duties included carrying the rifle for all vehicular and foot traffic and whenever I left the gate house. After 2 months of working 1 - 2 nights a week, I questioned the idea of armed officers, when an ex army shift colleague told me "it has been that way for years and the USA has been the same for years unless in time of war" (back in 1987). Shortly after it was taken back over by the military again for management as too many "things" were walking off base.

[integrator97]

That is a crazy story. Lack of communication between organized armed groups "on the same team" is sometimes disturbing.

Yea. The crazy thing is, you know the police should have known that was the base. I can understand responding, but expecting the possibility of it being a guard.

[junkyarddog]

Copper theft is rife here with rates of $6k US a ton for scrap metal and I recall an open cut mine where people stole 4 miles of copper power cable (disconnected) by cutting it up with diamond chain - chain saws (from a shed) and then transport it in 25 yd lengths on semi-trailers. They had 3 days over a long weekend to do this and worked around the clock taking tens of thousands in scrap and this was over 15 years back - so imagine the value now ?

4 miles... Curious what the diameter was on that. You have any idea of the voltage that line carried? The biggest 345kv lines that we deal with are thicker than your forearm and weight roughly 15 pounds per foot.

The weird thing about large scale copper theft-unlike many others types of theft- is that it is often a highly organized salvage operation complete with guards, anti-surveillance tactics and personnel, large scale equipment etc. For this reason, it often goes entirely unnoticed by local residents, police etc. Just men working. lol.

[junkyarddog]

Your company seems content to place you in situations that are extremely dangerous w/o adequate back-up. You may have to use your own judgment on a case-by-case basis as to whether you should confront or simply observe from a safe distance. If the hunters are simply trespassing, is it worth the risk to confront? Maybe-maybe not. Go with your gut feeling. Remember, property can always be cleaned, repaired or replaced - you can't.

You can't help anyone as a casualty. Just because your company wants you to do something doesn't mean that you should, especially when you know it's not safe. Your call, but I know what I would do.

That is wisdom. Most of what your saying is expressed in our orders, and the general culture of our operation. Like I said above, the best thing about the job is the freedom to use judgment. When we evade instead of confronting someone, no one even so much as sighs or rolls their eyes or says they would have been more aggressive if it was them.

I guess what makes me nervous sometimes is that ya, property can be cleaned and replaced etc. but if I make the call to not confront a trespasser(s) in a substation and they get into the control building and start doing damage, there is a chance of more people getting hurt than myself. If it is a major transmission station there is a chance of the person causing a blackout across several states, disrupting/damaging the national power grid. That always weighs in on the decision. What they need is federal or state funding and federal or state police, 2 to a truck, automatic weapons, frangible
ammunition, flash bangs etc. Not us. On the other hand, the grid in the region I work is more secure than most other regions and that is something we take pride in.

[junkyarddog]

When I was stationed in security at Concord Naval Weapons Station, we had someone drive through a fence accidently at the BART parking lot adjacent to the base (26 miles of fenceline). So they posted a marine sentry until it was fixed. That first night, someone called the police and reported a man with a gun. Most people didn't realize it was the base.
So the police show up, eventually with 3 cars, and weapons drawn demanding he put down his weapon. Of course he tells them he can't etc. and calls for backup. It's a standoff, until the APV (Armored Personell Vehicle) of the reaction force, with the manned M-60 on top, comes over the hill, followed by the SOG. I still get a kick out of that story.

That is a crazy story. Lack of communication between organized armed groups "on the same team" is sometimes disturbing.

[junkyarddog]

cocknaces, with your description of your waiting for the spool thieves to come back, and your company wanting you to apprehend them BY YOURSELF, I'd put that way into the more crazy, than more excitement category.

Did your company ever think that the thieves might be dangerous if someone tried to apprehend them, or that they may feel that their group (if more than one person) might feel like taking the chance to fight you because of their having more people than you have, or that the police might actually be busy when they are notified of your need for them, and they will have a delayed response.

Well, I'm glad that nothing happened.

That is the reason for the disclaimer, "If you think it is safe". Seriously, people who make the choice not to apprehend in most situations are never punished in any way, even "unofficially" or socially. It is on the S/O to judge the situation and make the decision. To be honest, most of the time I make the decision to wait for police or at least another S/O. I have evaded more trouble than I've physically stopped. No shame in that, most of the time it really isn't safe. The customer and the police are better off with an excellent detailed description of the suspects than a dead S/O.

That is the thing I like about this job. We have allot of freedom. Post (or verbal) orders might call for an apprehension in some circumstances but there is no pressure to do so if we can't do so safely. The argument can be made that it is never safe. On the other hand, what we stress is that safety = a reasonable expectation of a successful apprehension. If we get killed or maimed trying to apprehend someone and they get away anyways, that is not a success, it is an abject failure. When we have enough information to determine that the expectation of success is reasonable, we can make the call that it is safe to proceed. Might get punched and kicked or hit with something, possibly even stabbed- but still have success and increase ones status within the operation, increasing your chances of being promoted etc.

When I started this job I thought what they were asking us to do was insane. But after seeing I could make a big contribution without getting myself killed and that there is a really productive attitude/culture in the workplace concerning use of force, my mind was changed and I bought into the program.
Tying success (the interest of the company) in with safety (the interest of the S/O) really makes it seem not so crazy. The freedom to make decisions on your own really balances out the risk. sorry for the long post, bad grammar etc.

[NRM_Oz]

Copper theft is rife here with rates of $6k US a ton for scrap metal and I recall an open cut mine where people stole 4 miles of copper power cable (disconnected) by cutting it up with diamond chain - chain saws (from a shed) and then transport it in 25 yd lengths on semi-trailers. They had 3 days over a long weekend to do this and worked around the clock taking tens of thousands in scrap and this was over 15 years back - so imagine the value now ?

[Mr. Security]

Hunters

Your company seems content to place you in situations that are extremely dangerous w/o adequate back-up. You may have to use your own judgment on a case-by-case basis as to whether you should confront or simply observe from a safe distance. If the hunters are simply trespassing, is it worth the risk to confront? Maybe-maybe not. Go with your gut feeling. Remember, property can always be cleaned, repaired or replaced - you can't.

You can't help anyone as a casualty. Just because your company wants you to do something doesn't mean that you should, especially when you know it's not safe. Your call, but I know what I would do.

[Bill Warnock]

When I was stationed in security at Concord Naval Weapons Station, we had someone drive through a fence accidently at the BART parking lot adjacent to the base (26 miles of fenceline). So they posted a marine sentry until it was fixed. That first night, someone called the police and reported a man with a gun. Most people didn't realize it was the base.
So the police show up, eventually with 3 cars, and weapons drawn demanding he put down his weapon. Of course he tells them he can't etc. and calls for backup. It's a standoff, until the APV (Armored Personell Vehicle) of the reaction force, with the manned M-60 on top, comes over the hill, followed by the SOG. I still get a kick out of that story.

Those police were lucky in that had they entered the restricted or controlled area, a Marine's dream would have come true and he would have iced those folks. When inspecting NWS Newport, a gunny told us that was what a young Marine prayed for. Off that duty, courtmartialed, fined a dollar, promoted one rank and transferred. That is what happened when a civilian worker who was in a "no lone zone" failed to obey the challenge. The L/C killed him with one shot. He was sent to Paris Island as a newly minted Corporal with DI duties.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[integrator97]

Fortunately for us, in the city, the police work with us much more frequently, patrol certain areas with us etc. So the city is allot more comfortable for me.

Speaking of "fun", last week we found a hole in a substation fence line (this one had no outer fence line), and about 30 yards down a heavily wooded hillside was a spool of copper. My detail that night was to hide in the dense brush near the spool and wait for the thieves to come back and break it down. When they came I was to call the code into dispatch and dispatch would alert the local police. This was set up with that PD ahead of time. Because the thieves would probably scatter as soon as the police approached, I was to apprehend them while the pd was on its way. "If you think its safe to", as I was told. Three nights on that detail and no one showed up. The utility company just winched the spool back into the station on the fourth day and fixed the fence. We do allot of this hide and wait stuff. The mix of fear and excitement is pretty crazy.

When I was stationed in security at Concord Naval Weapons Station, we had someone drive through a fence accidently at the BART parking lot adjacent to the base (26 miles of fenceline). So they posted a marine sentry until it was fixed. That first night, someone called the police and reported a man with a gun. Most people didn't realize it was the base.
So the police show up, eventually with 3 cars, and weapons drawn demanding he put down his weapon. Of course he tells them he can't etc. and calls for backup. It's a standoff, until the APV (Armored Personell Vehicle) of the reaction force, with the manned M-60 on top, comes over the hill, followed by the SOG. I still get a kick out of that story.

[bpdblue]

cocknaces, with your description of your waiting for the spool thieves to come back, and your company wanting you to apprehend them BY YOURSELF, I'd put that way into the more crazy, than more excitement category.

Did your company ever think that the thieves might be dangerous if someone tried to apprehend them, or that they may feel that their group (if more than one person) might feel like taking the chance to fight you because of their having more people than you have, or that the police might actually be busy when they are notified of your need for them, and they will have a delayed response.

Well, I'm glad that nothing happened.

[junkyarddog]

cocknaces you are very correct, the scene you describe is scary.

But you don't need to be out in the boonies to get a similar feeling. I worked in a city, with mid to upper class citizenry, and had lots of scary situations too.

Besides looking for suspects in bank robberies and murders just after the crimes occurred, we also would have people using laser pointers (we hoped they were anyway, but could have been laser rifle scopes) pointing them at our chests and heads on occasions. If we found the fools doing it, they were arrested for using the device in that manner, but most of the time we just got a real wake up call when we, or someone else saw the lazer light on us.

Just another day in paradise.

Fortunately for us, in the city, the police work with us much more frequently, patrol certain areas with us etc. So the city is allot more comfortable for me.

Speaking of "fun", last week we found a hole in a substation fence line (this one had no outer fence line), and about 30 yards down a heavily wooded hillside was a spool of copper. My detail that night was to hide in the dense brush near the spool and wait for the thieves to come back and break it down. When they came I was to call the code into dispatch and dispatch would alert the local police. This was set up with that PD ahead of time. Because the thieves would probably scatter as soon as the police approached, I was to apprehend them while the pd was on its way. "If you think its safe to", as I was told. Three nights on that detail and no one showed up. The utility company just winched the spool back into the station on the fourth day and fixed the fence. We do allot of this hide and wait stuff. The mix of fear and excitement is pretty crazy.

[junkyarddog]

They have safety zones on gun ranges for a reason. My cousin is a Lee Enfield .303 shooter (wwI rifle) and visit his range a few times, I know of the 2 mile no go zone that is minimum safety together with another 5 mile no access area (it was a former dump sight of scrap metal in the 50's). All you need is some idiot to go wandering into a buffer zone and then you have major range breach where a shell can go different or ricochet to another area. I recall working on a site with a new building where professional shooters were culling kangaroos and after hearing repeated gun shots and spotting orange clad shapes I rang the local police to check on anything happening in the reserve.

Seems the shooters had been given permits to be there but no1 had bothered to check with the construction site in progress (just 2 of us onsite in security) that morning. Whilst the shooters were 1000 yds out, I did not want to test their accuracy and I observed them clearing their weapons and removing the bolts from the rifles. Meeting at the fence line (both had trigger locked their weapons) we discussed the incident and they supplied all permits and details for my records. They were due to finish in 1 hour and then have someone collect the carcusses. Police arrived about 1.5 hours later to confirm my report of shooting and I supplied all details to them but agreed that these 2 men showed true professionalism and safety but all you need is someone to dismiss us as pains and not take safety seriously.

I think I would be packing some spare undies as this is not a good environment to be in. Drugs and alcohol with firearms or sheer stupidity is not a good mix for anyone to deal with.

I'd like to be packing another S/O with me on these patrols (especially alarm response) and something more than a sidearm.