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  • #16
    Originally posted by bpdblue View Post
    cocknaces, with your description of your waiting for the spool thieves to come back, and your company wanting you to apprehend them BY YOURSELF, I'd put that way into the more crazy, than more excitement category.

    Did your company ever think that the thieves might be dangerous if someone tried to apprehend them, or that they may feel that their group (if more than one person) might feel like taking the chance to fight you because of their having more people than you have, or that the police might actually be busy when they are notified of your need for them, and they will have a delayed response.

    Well, I'm glad that nothing happened.
    That is the reason for the disclaimer, "If you think it is safe". Seriously, people who make the choice not to apprehend in most situations are never punished in any way, even "unofficially" or socially. It is on the S/O to judge the situation and make the decision. To be honest, most of the time I make the decision to wait for police or at least another S/O. I have evaded more trouble than I've physically stopped. No shame in that, most of the time it really isn't safe. The customer and the police are better off with an excellent detailed description of the suspects than a dead S/O.

    That is the thing I like about this job. We have allot of freedom. Post (or verbal) orders might call for an apprehension in some circumstances but there is no pressure to do so if we can't do so safely. The argument can be made that it is never safe. On the other hand, what we stress is that safety = a reasonable expectation of a successful apprehension. If we get killed or maimed trying to apprehend someone and they get away anyways, that is not a success, it is an abject failure. When we have enough information to determine that the expectation of success is reasonable, we can make the call that it is safe to proceed. Might get punched and kicked or hit with something, possibly even stabbed- but still have success and increase ones status within the operation, increasing your chances of being promoted etc.

    When I started this job I thought what they were asking us to do was insane. But after seeing I could make a big contribution without getting myself killed and that there is a really productive attitude/culture in the workplace concerning use of force, my mind was changed and I bought into the program.
    Tying success (the interest of the company) in with safety (the interest of the S/O) really makes it seem not so crazy. The freedom to make decisions on your own really balances out the risk. sorry for the long post, bad grammar etc.
    formerly C&A

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    • #17
      Originally posted by integrator97 View Post
      When I was stationed in security at Concord Naval Weapons Station, we had someone drive through a fence accidently at the BART parking lot adjacent to the base (26 miles of fenceline). So they posted a marine sentry until it was fixed. That first night, someone called the police and reported a man with a gun. Most people didn't realize it was the base.
      So the police show up, eventually with 3 cars, and weapons drawn demanding he put down his weapon. Of course he tells them he can't etc. and calls for backup. It's a standoff, until the APV (Armored Personell Vehicle) of the reaction force, with the manned M-60 on top, comes over the hill, followed by the SOG. I still get a kick out of that story.
      That is a crazy story. Lack of communication between organized armed groups "on the same team" is sometimes disturbing.
      formerly C&A

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Mr. Security View Post
        Your company seems content to place you in situations that are extremely dangerous w/o adequate back-up. You may have to use your own judgment on a case-by-case basis as to whether you should confront or simply observe from a safe distance. If the hunters are simply trespassing, is it worth the risk to confront? Maybe-maybe not. Go with your gut feeling. Remember, property can always be cleaned, repaired or replaced - you can't.

        You can't help anyone as a casualty. Just because your company wants you to do something doesn't mean that you should, especially when you know it's not safe. Your call, but I know what I would do.
        That is wisdom. Most of what your saying is expressed in our orders, and the general culture of our operation. Like I said above, the best thing about the job is the freedom to use judgment. When we evade instead of confronting someone, no one even so much as sighs or rolls their eyes or says they would have been more aggressive if it was them.

        I guess what makes me nervous sometimes is that ya, property can be cleaned and replaced etc. but if I make the call to not confront a trespasser(s) in a substation and they get into the control building and start doing damage, there is a chance of more people getting hurt than myself. If it is a major transmission station there is a chance of the person causing a blackout across several states, disrupting/damaging the national power grid. That always weighs in on the decision. What they need is federal or state funding and federal or state police, 2 to a truck, automatic weapons, frangible
        ammunition, flash bangs etc. Not us. On the other hand, the grid in the region I work is more secure than most other regions and that is something we take pride in.
        formerly C&A

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        • #19
          Originally posted by NRM_Oz View Post
          Copper theft is rife here with rates of $6k US a ton for scrap metal and I recall an open cut mine where people stole 4 miles of copper power cable (disconnected) by cutting it up with diamond chain - chain saws (from a shed) and then transport it in 25 yd lengths on semi-trailers. They had 3 days over a long weekend to do this and worked around the clock taking tens of thousands in scrap and this was over 15 years back - so imagine the value now ?
          4 miles... Curious what the diameter was on that. You have any idea of the voltage that line carried? The biggest 345kv lines that we deal with are thicker than your forearm and weight roughly 15 pounds per foot.

          The weird thing about large scale copper theft-unlike many others types of theft- is that it is often a highly organized salvage operation complete with guards, anti-surveillance tactics and personnel, large scale equipment etc. For this reason, it often goes entirely unnoticed by local residents, police etc. Just men working. lol.
          formerly C&A

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          • #20
            Originally posted by cocknaces View Post
            That is a crazy story. Lack of communication between organized armed groups "on the same team" is sometimes disturbing.
            Yea. The crazy thing is, you know the police should have known that was the base. I can understand responding, but expecting the possibility of it being a guard.
            sigpic
            Rocket Science
            Making everything else look simple, since 1958.


            http://my.opera.com/integrator/blog/
            One Man's Opinion

            The Future. It isn't what it used to be.

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            • #21
              1 of my very first armed sites was working at a military post at "1 post" (outer security check point) for a military base. We had parking for civillian cars and visitors and they were then escorted to the entrance of the military base (MP and SP manned). I was issued with an ancient .22 rifle with NOT AMMO. The MP and SP were issued with the same rifle and they were dry as well since the powers that be demanded it be that way for non-war times. Duties included carrying the rifle for all vehicular and foot traffic and whenever I left the gate house. After 2 months of working 1 - 2 nights a week, I questioned the idea of armed officers, when an ex army shift colleague told me "it has been that way for years and the USA has been the same for years unless in time of war" (back in 1987). Shortly after it was taken back over by the military again for management as too many "things" were walking off base.
              "Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer" Sun Tzu

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              • #22
                Originally posted by NRM_Oz View Post
                1 of my very first armed sites was working at a military post at "1 post" (outer security check point) for a military base. We had parking for civillian cars and visitors and they were then escorted to the entrance of the military base (MP and SP manned). I was issued with an ancient .22 rifle with NOT AMMO. The MP and SP were issued with the same rifle and they were dry as well since the powers that be demanded it be that way for non-war times. Duties included carrying the rifle for all vehicular and foot traffic and whenever I left the gate house. After 2 months of working 1 - 2 nights a week, I questioned the idea of armed officers, when an ex army shift colleague told me "it has been that way for years and the USA has been the same for years unless in time of war" (back in 1987). Shortly after it was taken back over by the military again for management as too many "things" were walking off base.
                When I arrived at Concord, I was about the 20th sailor in the new Navy Security Force. Concord was actually the 1st to take over from the Marines. Anyway, when we actually shifted from Marine to Navy security, the first thing we did was load the weapons (none in the chamber though). This was coincidently, in 1987.

                When we invaded Panama, soldiers from Fort Ord came up to get ammo and weapons, and proceed to Travis AFB. The guards the sent to pick up truckloads of grenades, ammo, and who knows what? Weapons, but no ammo. We sent armed escorts.

                Who knows where they come up with stuff. My dad always said "common sense isn't all that common".
                sigpic
                Rocket Science
                Making everything else look simple, since 1958.


                http://my.opera.com/integrator/blog/
                One Man's Opinion

                The Future. It isn't what it used to be.

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                • #23
                  ehh, guess I was in a different army... i was issued ammo for everything and anything.

                  Hunters, deal with them all the time up here when it's season. Typically we'll do a 2 officer patrol when it comes opening season.

                  Don't want to leave or follow instructions? Troopers have quads and will arrest you.
                  Overmotivated and Underpaid... I'm a Security supervisors wet dream...

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