Hunters tresspassing....

[junkyarddog]

...make me nervous. We have many isolated rural sites whos outer perimeter are each defined by a tall barbed wire fence that extends along the abutting road and forms a 3/4 circle around the property. The gap being some natural barrier like a cliff or steep hillside. The inner perimeter is usually a few acres completely surrounded by barbed wire fencing, and equipped with alarms and cameras. In the center of the inner fence line is a one story windowless concrete building with a steel man-door in each cardinal direction. The building is the control building for each site.

All of the fences are posted clearly "NO TRESPASSING", among other various signs "No hunting, entry by authorized personnel only" etc. Groups of hunters lately have been in the habit of trespassing between the two fence lines. Today I cam upon 12 of them all armed with long guns. Procedure for intruders who are ONLY trespassing in this zone is to call the police and warn the intruders they are trespassing and must leave the property.

Not allot of fun commanding 12 armed men to get off the site. Especially when you patrol the site at various other times and hear the pops of their rifles in the distance. Gotta wonder how many times one of us been in their cross hairs "just for fun".

Nope, I don't like it at all.

Anyone have similar experiences?

[CorpSec]

Doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me either. But, it has been my experience that hunters as a group are pretty easy going folks. My big concern would be getting shot accidentally when one of them misses their target.

My guess is that if you approach them professionally and explain them that they are on private property and they need to leave they will give you nothing but cooperation.

I am sure you are smart enough to keep the encounter low key and not play tough guy.

[junkyarddog]

Doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me either. But, it has been my experience that hunters as a group are pretty easy going folks. My big concern would be getting shot accidentally when one of them misses their target.

My guess is that if you approach them professionally and explain them that they are on private property and they need to leave they will give you nothing but cooperation.

I am sure you are smart enough to keep the encounter low key and not play tough guy.

They normally cooperate until you and the police leave then ten minutes later they are back on the property. Bullet holes in no trespassing signs (always what you want to see as a s/o), garbage along the fence line etc. IMO hunters like any other group have their share of knuckleheads and when it comes to hunters its guys that blatantly disregard clearly posted no trespassing signs and shoot at signs hanging from fences that protect the equipment that supplies electricity to their homes.

My big fear is that they get into the substation or control building and I am put in a situation where procedure says to use force to remove anyone from those areas. Thats not something we are trained to be nice about. They have to leave now. The police are not allowed within that inner fence without escort. Thats what we are for. The idea of bullets flying around in one of these places, a damaged piece of equipment scares me allot more than a gun.

Not an unreasonable fear given the proliferation of crystal meth in rural areas and the connection between meth addiction and copper theft.

Normally they see you coming and at least move to the tree line out of sight, but lately they have been fairly bold, waiting for the truck to approach. Taking their time leaving. The guys I talked to earlier...big eyes, nervous, shaky hands holding rifles. eh.

edit: BTW, if the things I say concerning our procedures ever seem a bit extreme ( considering the flak I've gotten when I talk about some of these procedures), please check out the following information for why these procedures are the way they are:
number 1

number2

Doesn't take much to knock out the power to a town, or to most of the country for that matter.

[NRM_Oz]

They have safety zones on gun ranges for a reason. My cousin is a Lee Enfield .303 shooter (wwI rifle) and visit his range a few times, I know of the 2 mile no go zone that is minimum safety together with another 5 mile no access area (it was a former dump sight of scrap metal in the 50's). All you need is some idiot to go wandering into a buffer zone and then you have major range breach where a shell can go different or ricochet to another area. I recall working on a site with a new building where professional shooters were culling kangaroos and after hearing repeated gun shots and spotting orange clad shapes I rang the local police to check on anything happening in the reserve.

Seems the shooters had been given permits to be there but no1 had bothered to check with the construction site in progress (just 2 of us onsite in security) that morning. Whilst the shooters were 1000 yds out, I did not want to test their accuracy and I observed them clearing their weapons and removing the bolts from the rifles. Meeting at the fence line (both had trigger locked their weapons) we discussed the incident and they supplied all permits and details for my records. They were due to finish in 1 hour and then have someone collect the carcusses. Police arrived about 1.5 hours later to confirm my report of shooting and I supplied all details to them but agreed that these 2 men showed true professionalism and safety but all you need is someone to dismiss us as pains and not take safety seriously.

I think I would be packing some spare undies as this is not a good environment to be in. Drugs and alcohol with firearms or sheer stupidity is not a good mix for anyone to deal with.

[FireEMSPolice]

My guess is that if you approach them professionally and explain them that they are on private property and they need to leave they will give you nothing but cooperation.

That does not always happen, at least not where I work.

We have 3 retention ponds on our property. During the nicer months, we get people fishing in them all the time. As soon as we roll up and tell them that no fishing is allowed they say things like:

"Its not posted"
"Why did they put fish in here if they are not going to let people fish"

Its private property and I dont need to post. Me telling you is enough. I am sure the management didnt put fish in there during mall construction.

Some people at the mall piss me off.

[EMTGuard]

We have a couple of ponds on site also and about once a week we get a call from an employee that someone is parked near one and fishing. So one of us unarmed observe and report Security Officers has to drive out there and tell them to pack up the fishing poles and leave since they are on private property.
Last week someone called the security desk to report a pickup with some people under our dock picking up pieces of scrap. (We work at a Steel Mill which receives scrap metal via barge on the Mississippi River.) The SiteSupervisor/EMT was on duty that day so he left the female SO at the desk to answer the phones and sign in trucks. When he arrived at the dock he found a pickup truck and 3 men loading scrap into it. He told them they were on private property and to "Put it back" <-what he actually wrote in the logbook.
Later the same day he responded to a report of 2 employees fighting. I worked for him the day before and had to deal with an employee fight also as well as a major injury. Oh well, If it's not one thing it's another.

[NRM_Oz]

A former team mate used to be a loco driver (train) for coal shunting and often would find on these private lines that some of the coal pieces would fall off the trucks so people would come scabbing (stealing) them off the tracks or lines to take home. Too many accidents occurred and this was an issue with them needing to post signs up for 150 miles (alot of signs) to cover themselves as these people COULD sue for injuries as there were no fences or signs warning of the dangers.

I wonder how people would go in a law suit if they got sick from toxic fish ?

[bpdblue]

cocknaces you are very correct, the scene you describe is scary.

But you don't need to be out in the boonies to get a similar feeling. I worked in a city, with mid to upper class citizenry, and had lots of scary situations too.

Besides looking for suspects in bank robberies and murders just after the crimes occurred, we also would have people using laser pointers (we hoped they were anyway, but could have been laser rifle scopes) pointing them at our chests and heads on occasions. If we found the fools doing it, they were arrested for using the device in that manner, but most of the time we just got a real wake up call when we, or someone else saw the lazer light on us.

Just another day in paradise.

[junkyarddog]

They have safety zones on gun ranges for a reason. My cousin is a Lee Enfield .303 shooter (wwI rifle) and visit his range a few times, I know of the 2 mile no go zone that is minimum safety together with another 5 mile no access area (it was a former dump sight of scrap metal in the 50's). All you need is some idiot to go wandering into a buffer zone and then you have major range breach where a shell can go different or ricochet to another area. I recall working on a site with a new building where professional shooters were culling kangaroos and after hearing repeated gun shots and spotting orange clad shapes I rang the local police to check on anything happening in the reserve.

Seems the shooters had been given permits to be there but no1 had bothered to check with the construction site in progress (just 2 of us onsite in security) that morning. Whilst the shooters were 1000 yds out, I did not want to test their accuracy and I observed them clearing their weapons and removing the bolts from the rifles. Meeting at the fence line (both had trigger locked their weapons) we discussed the incident and they supplied all permits and details for my records. They were due to finish in 1 hour and then have someone collect the carcusses. Police arrived about 1.5 hours later to confirm my report of shooting and I supplied all details to them but agreed that these 2 men showed true professionalism and safety but all you need is someone to dismiss us as pains and not take safety seriously.

I think I would be packing some spare undies as this is not a good environment to be in. Drugs and alcohol with firearms or sheer stupidity is not a good mix for anyone to deal with.

I'd like to be packing another S/O with me on these patrols (especially alarm response) and something more than a sidearm.

[junkyarddog]

cocknaces you are very correct, the scene you describe is scary.

But you don't need to be out in the boonies to get a similar feeling. I worked in a city, with mid to upper class citizenry, and had lots of scary situations too.

Besides looking for suspects in bank robberies and murders just after the crimes occurred, we also would have people using laser pointers (we hoped they were anyway, but could have been laser rifle scopes) pointing them at our chests and heads on occasions. If we found the fools doing it, they were arrested for using the device in that manner, but most of the time we just got a real wake up call when we, or someone else saw the lazer light on us.

Just another day in paradise.

Fortunately for us, in the city, the police work with us much more frequently, patrol certain areas with us etc. So the city is allot more comfortable for me.

Speaking of "fun", last week we found a hole in a substation fence line (this one had no outer fence line), and about 30 yards down a heavily wooded hillside was a spool of copper. My detail that night was to hide in the dense brush near the spool and wait for the thieves to come back and break it down. When they came I was to call the code into dispatch and dispatch would alert the local police. This was set up with that PD ahead of time. Because the thieves would probably scatter as soon as the police approached, I was to apprehend them while the pd was on its way. "If you think its safe to", as I was told. Three nights on that detail and no one showed up. The utility company just winched the spool back into the station on the fourth day and fixed the fence. We do allot of this hide and wait stuff. The mix of fear and excitement is pretty crazy.

[bpdblue]

cocknaces, with your description of your waiting for the spool thieves to come back, and your company wanting you to apprehend them BY YOURSELF, I'd put that way into the more crazy, than more excitement category.

Did your company ever think that the thieves might be dangerous if someone tried to apprehend them, or that they may feel that their group (if more than one person) might feel like taking the chance to fight you because of their having more people than you have, or that the police might actually be busy when they are notified of your need for them, and they will have a delayed response.

Well, I'm glad that nothing happened.

[integrator97]

Fortunately for us, in the city, the police work with us much more frequently, patrol certain areas with us etc. So the city is allot more comfortable for me.

Speaking of "fun", last week we found a hole in a substation fence line (this one had no outer fence line), and about 30 yards down a heavily wooded hillside was a spool of copper. My detail that night was to hide in the dense brush near the spool and wait for the thieves to come back and break it down. When they came I was to call the code into dispatch and dispatch would alert the local police. This was set up with that PD ahead of time. Because the thieves would probably scatter as soon as the police approached, I was to apprehend them while the pd was on its way. "If you think its safe to", as I was told. Three nights on that detail and no one showed up. The utility company just winched the spool back into the station on the fourth day and fixed the fence. We do allot of this hide and wait stuff. The mix of fear and excitement is pretty crazy.

When I was stationed in security at Concord Naval Weapons Station, we had someone drive through a fence accidently at the BART parking lot adjacent to the base (26 miles of fenceline). So they posted a marine sentry until it was fixed. That first night, someone called the police and reported a man with a gun. Most people didn't realize it was the base.
So the police show up, eventually with 3 cars, and weapons drawn demanding he put down his weapon. Of course he tells them he can't etc. and calls for backup. It's a standoff, until the APV (Armored Personell Vehicle) of the reaction force, with the manned M-60 on top, comes over the hill, followed by the SOG. I still get a kick out of that story.

[Bill Warnock]

When I was stationed in security at Concord Naval Weapons Station, we had someone drive through a fence accidently at the BART parking lot adjacent to the base (26 miles of fenceline). So they posted a marine sentry until it was fixed. That first night, someone called the police and reported a man with a gun. Most people didn't realize it was the base.
So the police show up, eventually with 3 cars, and weapons drawn demanding he put down his weapon. Of course he tells them he can't etc. and calls for backup. It's a standoff, until the APV (Armored Personell Vehicle) of the reaction force, with the manned M-60 on top, comes over the hill, followed by the SOG. I still get a kick out of that story.

Those police were lucky in that had they entered the restricted or controlled area, a Marine's dream would have come true and he would have iced those folks. When inspecting NWS Newport, a gunny told us that was what a young Marine prayed for. Off that duty, courtmartialed, fined a dollar, promoted one rank and transferred. That is what happened when a civilian worker who was in a "no lone zone" failed to obey the challenge. The L/C killed him with one shot. He was sent to Paris Island as a newly minted Corporal with DI duties.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[Mr. Security]

Hunters

Your company seems content to place you in situations that are extremely dangerous w/o adequate back-up. You may have to use your own judgment on a case-by-case basis as to whether you should confront or simply observe from a safe distance. If the hunters are simply trespassing, is it worth the risk to confront? Maybe-maybe not. Go with your gut feeling. Remember, property can always be cleaned, repaired or replaced - you can't.

You can't help anyone as a casualty. Just because your company wants you to do something doesn't mean that you should, especially when you know it's not safe. Your call, but I know what I would do.

[NRM_Oz]

Copper theft is rife here with rates of $6k US a ton for scrap metal and I recall an open cut mine where people stole 4 miles of copper power cable (disconnected) by cutting it up with diamond chain - chain saws (from a shed) and then transport it in 25 yd lengths on semi-trailers. They had 3 days over a long weekend to do this and worked around the clock taking tens of thousands in scrap and this was over 15 years back - so imagine the value now ?