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  • SecTrainer
    replied
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
    It will cause a loss of security jobs alright. In the comfort zone pay range that the company wishes to pay.
    Actually, most companies already only have the bare minimum number of officers they have to have, so there's not typically a bunch of surplus positions they can just cut on a whim. If a company has to have a guard on the gate and another at the loading dock, that's what it has to have, and that's all it will have even at minimum wage. There's very little fat to cut out of most security programs.

    Alternatively, a company could potentially just eliminate security entirely if they're that stupid (and fewer companies are, these days)...but it wouldn't take higher state standards/wages to bring such a company to that decision. They might do that because the cost of insuring their guards goes up, the cost of uniforms goes up, or a million other reasons.

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  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    It will cause a loss of security jobs alright. In the comfort zone pay range that the company wishes to pay.

    Leave a comment:


  • integrator97
    replied
    Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
    The favorite squeal is "That will cause a loss of security jobs!" - a claim that I have NEVER seen proven, but it always seems to be believed.
    Yea, maybe a loss of low skilled people who don't qualify, but you still have to have x number of s/o's. They'll just be replaced by a better quality officer. Doesn't make sense.

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  • SecTrainer
    replied
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
    How many companies actually go to the trouble of training people to observe, though? Or training in actual reporting? That's the problem, and why in the vast majority of firms the security personnel are simply unskilled labor in a uniform.

    Now, in some states, you are literally required by state law to possess a minimum of training in these topics before you can even apply for a guard job. We expect people to shell out money to pay for their guard license + training (if you live in a state that mandates it, some only require money for a license without training), and then expect them to work for minimum wage.

    So, yes, I do wonder as well why we expect this. Especially since the vast majority of security guards have no real training past "look around."
    I'm seeing at least some trend in increased expectations among security clients that are starting to drive some changes on the vendor side - not surprisingly, since many vendors will only give clients the minimum that they demand whether it's adequate or not.

    There can also be "outside" influences that result in higher standards or better compliance with standards. We were set to launch the training academy some months ago with a DoD client and got detoured by the need to "prove" compliance with SCORM and some other standards that the DoD has imposed. We're doing this now, and although it's a very arduous process (especially the testing and documentation) it has also been quite useful to program design in certain ways.

    Since the self-regulatory effects of normal market forces do not work very well in this industry, I'd sure like to see less collusion between state regulators and the larger security vendors who squeal like stuck pigs any time higher standards for security officers are proposed. The favorite squeal is "That will cause a loss of security jobs!" - a claim that I have NEVER seen proven, but it always seems to be believed.
    Last edited by SecTrainer; 01-20-2008, 07:04 AM.

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  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
    Hardly, Nate. I train people for required skills five days a week. Even "observation" is a skill that I take 8 or 16 hours to train, depending on my contract. It's hardly just "open your eyes and look around", especially in the post-9/11 world. Observe how? Observe what? Observe whom, and why? What are you looking for, specifically? Would you recognize a terrorist? Someone casing the facility for an attack? What do you look for when you approach a suspicious parked vehicle to check it out? What are early behavioral warnings? What are the first things to look for in the event of an NBC incident? What are the critical things to look for with an active shooter? We do many walk-throughs and simulations on observation alone. OBSERVATION IS A TRAINED SKILL, not unlike a hunter learning to track game and interpret the droppings and other signs. Shall we discuss "reporting" next? Excuse me, but unskilled, my fat ass.

    It is the shame of this industry that people in the industry (not lay people) and who should know better think this way. The result, of course, is that officers are too often paid accordingly - as "nonskilled workers". We want skilled security at flippin' hamburger-flippin' wages...and we wonder that we sometimes get poor performance.

    The real wonder is that very often we get performance from security officers that is astonishingly professional even when we're not willing to pay for it. That is the real wonder, and after all these years it still amazes me. My hat is always off to professional security officers, and in particular to those who are professional despite being underpaid, underappreciated even by members of our own profession, and inadequately supported by management in terms of supplying the guidance, the tools and the training that you need. Never think that there aren't many of us out here who know what you do, and the conditions in which you do it. Your efforts literally make life as we know it possible for your fellow citizens, and I hope you take some considerable pride in that simple fact.
    How many companies actually go to the trouble of training people to observe, though? Or training in actual reporting? That's the problem, and why in the vast majority of firms the security personnel are simply unskilled labor in a uniform.

    Now, in some states, you are literally required by state law to possess a minimum of training in these topics before you can even apply for a guard job. We expect people to shell out money to pay for their guard license + training (if you live in a state that mandates it, some only require money for a license without training), and then expect them to work for minimum wage.

    So, yes, I do wonder as well why we expect this. Especially since the vast majority of security guards have no real training past "look around."

    Leave a comment:


  • Lawson
    replied
    Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
    Hardly, Nate. I train people for required skills five days a week. Even "observation" is a skill that I take 8 or 16 hours to train, depending on my contract. It's hardly just "open your eyes and look around", especially in the post-9/11 world. Observe how? Observe what? Observe whom, and why? What are you looking for, specifically? Would you recognize a terrorist? Someone casing the facility for an attack? What do you look for when you approach a suspicious parked vehicle to check it out? What are early behavioral warnings? What are the first things to look for in the event of an NBC incident? What are the critical things to look for with an active shooter? We do many walk-throughs and simulations on observation alone. OBSERVATION IS A TRAINED SKILL, not unlike a hunter learning to track game and interpret the droppings and other signs. Shall we discuss "reporting" next? Excuse me, but unskilled, my fat ass.

    It is the shame of this industry that people in the industry (not lay people) and who should know better think this way. The result, of course, is that officers are too often paid accordingly - as "nonskilled workers". We want skilled security at flippin' hamburger-flippin' wages...and we wonder that we sometimes get poor performance.

    The real wonder is that very often we get performance from security officers that is astonishingly professional even when we're not willing to pay for it. That is the real wonder, and after all these years it still amazes me. My hat is always off to professional security officers, and in particular to those who are professional despite being underpaid, underappreciated even by members of our own profession, and inadequately supported by management in terms of supplying the guidance, the tools and the training that you need. Never think that there aren't many of us out here who know what you do, and the conditions in which you do it. Your efforts literally make life as we know it possible for your fellow citizens, and I hope you take some considerable pride in that simple fact.
    Well said.

    Leave a comment:


  • integrator97
    replied
    Originally posted by buck View Post
    Those hours aren't much different from mine now and I make less than that running my tail ragged!

    This job gets better and better. Unarmed, underpaid, and unappreciated. Oh well, I better get that door locked...
    Almost sounds like the motto of Desert Duck Airlines in the mid '80's:
    Alone. Unarmed. Unafraid.

    That was the helicoptor attached to the Great White Ghost of the Arabian Coast. USS LaSalle, flagship of the gulf squadron.

    Leave a comment:


  • buck
    replied
    Those hours aren't much different from mine now and I make less than that running my tail ragged!

    This job gets better and better. Unarmed, underpaid, and unappreciated. Oh well, I better get that door locked...

    Leave a comment:


  • integrator97
    replied
    Originally posted by HotelSecurity View Post
    Just a few corrections. Ireland is not a Commonwealth country. Northern Ireland & Scotland are not countries, they are part of the UK. (Along with Wales & England).
    Well I'll be dipped. I learned something new. [I live by the "learn somethong new every day" mantra].

    But this is from the Scottish Parliament (note the spelling, so that's two new things cause I would not have put the 2nd 'a' in parliament) so we weren't alone on thinking it was a country.

    The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the full name of the country. Scotland is a kingdom within the United Kingdom (UK), and forms part of Britain (the largest island) and Great Britain (which includes the Scottish islands).

    As the UK has no written constitution in the usual sense, constitutional terminology is fraught with difficulties of interpretation and it is common usage nowadays to describe the four constituent parts of the UK (Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland) as “countries”.

    Leave a comment:


  • HotelSecurity
    replied
    Originally posted by NRM_Oz View Post
    It's just standard labour hire conditions here and in many other Commonwealth Countries like the UK, Ireland and Scotland (apart from Canada I see now). You have day / night / Saturday / Sunday and Public Hols rates but some shonky businesses just charge out a flat rate and rip off their staff in the process. Why would I want to work $22.00 /hr on a public holiday when the award rate is around $47.00 ?

    Some companies have a weekday rate which covers the night penalties and another one for weekends as they may rarely supply staff for Sundays and Public Holidays.
    Just a few corrections. Ireland is not a Commonwealth country. Northern Ireland & Scotland are not countries, they are part of the UK. (Along with Wales & England).

    Leave a comment:


  • SecTrainer
    replied
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
    I know of no non-skilled (security is not skilled, folks.)
    Hardly, Nate. I train people for required skills five days a week. Even "observation" is a skill that I take 8 or 16 hours to train, depending on my contract. It's hardly just "open your eyes and look around", especially in the post-9/11 world. Observe how? Observe what? Observe whom, and why? What are you looking for, specifically? Would you recognize a terrorist? Someone casing the facility for an attack? What do you look for when you approach a suspicious parked vehicle to check it out? What are early behavioral warnings? What are the first things to look for in the event of an NBC incident? What are the critical things to look for with an active shooter? We do many walk-throughs and simulations on observation alone. OBSERVATION IS A TRAINED SKILL, not unlike a hunter learning to track game and interpret the droppings and other signs. Shall we discuss "reporting" next? Excuse me, but unskilled, my fat ass.

    It is the shame of this industry that people in the industry (not lay people) and who should know better think this way. The result, of course, is that officers are too often paid accordingly - as "nonskilled workers". We want skilled security at flippin' hamburger-flippin' wages...and we wonder that we sometimes get poor performance.

    The real wonder is that very often we get performance from security officers that is astonishingly professional even when we're not willing to pay for it. That is the real wonder, and after all these years it still amazes me. My hat is always off to professional security officers, and in particular to those who are professional despite being underpaid, underappreciated even by members of our own profession, and inadequately supported by management in terms of supplying the guidance, the tools and the training that you need. Never think that there aren't many of us out here who know what you do, and the conditions in which you do it. Your efforts literally make life as we know it possible for your fellow citizens, and I hope you take some considerable pride in that simple fact.
    Last edited by SecTrainer; 01-15-2008, 11:51 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • SecTrainer
    replied
    Originally posted by NRM_Oz View Post
    It's just standard labour hire conditions here and in many other Commonwealth Countries like the UK, Ireland and Scotland (apart from Canada I see now). You have day / night / Saturday / Sunday and Public Hols rates but some shonky businesses just charge out a flat rate and rip off their staff in the process. Why would I want to work $22.00 /hr on a public holiday when the award rate is around $47.00 ?

    Some companies have a weekday rate which covers the night penalties and another one for weekends as they may rarely supply staff for Sundays and Public Holidays.
    I've noticed the term "award rate" used by members from Australia. Does this mean the "contract hourly rate charged to the client", I presume? If so, there's a lot of expense eating up the difference between that rate and the pay rate.

    Respectfully, it isn't an officer's business what the client might be charged. We spend too much time thinking about "what we get" and comparing that with "what the client is charged". We assume that we are competent to decide how much "profit" the company should make. Of course, the difference isn't anything close to the "profit" that the company makes because a lot of expenses eat into the so-called "profit", but that's what we call it and that's how we think about it. We're paid $15, company charges $25, $10 profit. It's no such thing....it's probably more like $2 to $3 NBT (net before taxes). Suddenly, we don't have such a problem with the company making $3 while we make $15, eh?

    Or, we hear that the contract rate went up $3/hr but we only got a 75-cent raise. Yeah, but the cost of gasoline went from $2.25 to $3.25 and threatens to go higher, and the company's insurance rates have gone up by 10%, but we don't think about any of that. Nope...we're getting cheated!

    All that an officer needs, or is competent, to think about in terms of wages is whether he is being paid an appropriate, competent wage for the job he is asked to perform, especially compared with other similar kinds of work and wages paid by other companies in the same area for the same job. If the client was being charged $1000 an hour, it still wouldn't be any of our business. Am I being paid fairly for the job I am asked to do, the skills I am required to have (sorry, Nate, I train people for required skills every day, so I can't agree with your "unskilled" assessment) and the prevailing wages in my area for similar jobs? That's all we need to know.
    Last edited by SecTrainer; 01-15-2008, 11:49 AM.

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  • Lawson
    replied
    We get a $.75 differential for working nights. I believe there is a $1.75 differential for working Sundays.

    Leave a comment:


  • CorpSec
    replied
    Me and my staff get a 10% night differential and night shift differentials are fairly common for in house operations. However, I have never heard of a contract operation paying any sort of night shift premium.

    Leave a comment:


  • NRM_Oz
    replied
    It's just standard labour hire conditions here and in many other Commonwealth Countries like the UK, Ireland and Scotland (apart from Canada I see now). You have day / night / Saturday / Sunday and Public Hols rates but some shonky businesses just charge out a flat rate and rip off their staff in the process. Why would I want to work $22.00 /hr on a public holiday when the award rate is around $47.00 ?

    Some companies have a weekday rate which covers the night penalties and another one for weekends as they may rarely supply staff for Sundays and Public Holidays.

    Leave a comment:

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