Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Campus cops, please comment.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • NRM_Oz
    replied
    I would assume it is private property where there is permission to go into the grounds for those who wish to utilise the property for whatever reason. Same as carparks at night - they are not public roads - HOWEVER - if the streets are marked with road names, are listed in a street directory, then this could be seen as another story.

    Now to toss a spanner into the works, are there signs posted to say - students / staff only ? How would your insurance cover go with being on this land with a student driver ? I am not from the USA but we do have signs posted saying for staff or students only and most are gated areas with checkpoints and nowhere near as massive as the USA colleges.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tennsix
    replied
    There is always room for discretion. I don’t think the blind and unconditional enforcement of every policy or law is practical. One trait of any good officer is his/her ability to exercise good judgment while demonstrating the capacity to relate with the public.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Well...

    When I worked on campus, it was quite simple...If you did not have a parking permit ro looked suspcious for some reason, I was going to tell you to get lost. OF course, if you could prove the validity of your visit, i.e. picking up a staff member, I would allow you to stay. Despite the fact that it was "public property" we still had the authority to trespass people. IF you are seen to be in violation of the policies that we enforce, you get removed. Also, if I were to supervise the officer who decided it was ok for you to bend the rules, I probably would at least write him up. Our industry does not need any more flak because of guards not doing their job. There are alot of stupid rules, but we are paid to enforce them. Sidenote, the one that really agitates me is when I work at the bar and I cannot allow the 19-yr old who just got back from Iraq/Afghanistan/Wherever to drink while on our property because of the TABC rules. Dumbest law ever...

    Leave a comment:


  • Tennsix
    replied
    A public college or university (or town for that matter) may enact an ordinance prohibiting the operation of motor vehicles by those carrying only a learner’s permit. Such an ordinance is not an infringement of civil liberties as driving is not a right and said rule can withstand the test of sensibleness. An unlicensed driver (albeit a learner’s permit) could be considered a danger. For example, my university (and some towns) prohibits the possession of firearms, even with a gun permit. Bringing a gun on campus is not illegal according to state law but it does violate university laws. Violators are barred from campus and their weapons are confiscated. If they refuse to oblige, statutes such as criminal trespassing, resisting law enforcement, and disorderly conduct come into play.


    The exceptions to the firearms policy are law enforcement, campus security (separate from university police), faculty (I don’t know why…), and persons receiving written permission from the UPD chief.
    Last edited by Tennsix; 12-22-2007, 04:57 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andy Taylor
    replied
    Originally posted by HospitalOfficer View Post
    Just to reiterate. What I have learned in Ohio is, even though it is "Public Property" someone owns it and the public is "invited" to use the facility. The property owner and agents of the property can enforce what they want and impose whatever rules they want.
    Do not confuse "Public Property" with "Private Property that is open to the public."

    Leave a comment:


  • Andy Taylor
    replied
    Originally posted by Tennsix View Post
    I am a state university police officer. My university is a political subsection of the state government, all of the university’s campuses are state property and the UPD is a state level law enforcement agency. As such, we are empowered to enforce all traffic laws. That said, the university (just like any town/city) may pass certain ordnances that curb the potentially irresponsible, hazardous or negligent conduct. Driving in circles can certainly be construed as reckless.

    Exactly. My statement of "driving in circles" is more akin to driving around the block. At least in my case. If a person is doing this and is legal to drive it looks suspicious, but is not illegal. A city would not be within its rights to pass an ordance contrary to the state vehicle code. IE: a person with a learner's permit may drive under certain conditions. The example of "doing donuts in the park" doesn't hit the mark. That is illegal per the state vehicle code.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tennsix
    replied
    I am a state university police officer. My university is a political subsection of the state government, all of the university’s campuses are state property and the UPD is a state level law enforcement agency. As such, we are empowered to enforce all traffic laws. That said, the university (just like any town/city) may pass certain ordnances that curb the potentially irresponsible, hazardous or negligent conduct. Driving in circles can certainly be construed as reckless.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Warnock
    replied
    A public campus, city or state property, may be considered open to visitors but at the same time it must be remembered this is "Controlled Property." The rules of "Contraband and Prohibited" items apply.
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill

    Leave a comment:


  • HospitalOfficer
    replied
    Just to reiterate. What I have learned in Ohio is, even though it is "Public Property" someone owns it and the public is "invited" to use the facility. The property owner and agents of the property can enforce what they want and impose whatever rules they want.

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Caesar
    replied
    I understand where Mike is coming from, in the same situation I would have discontinued an activity once I knew it was against the rules even if I disagreed with the rule. If I felt strongly that the rule was wrong I'd take it up with the appropriate authority (which in this case would be the College Administration or College District Board of Trustees) after the fact.

    What the campus police officer in question did was IMO questionable. No matter how "lame" you think a rule is you don't look the other way, not just because it's wrong but for your own personal well being. Giving someone tacit consent to break a rule is a good way to get fired.

    If something beyond the person's control happens when the person is doing something they shouldn't, and it comes out that an officer "looked the other way" that officer could be screwed. That's one reason I would stop doing something once I knew it was against the rules, because I sure as heck don't want some officer who is just doing their job and trying to be nice to get in trouble because I can't follow the rules.

    All of us here are in the business of "bringing order to chaos" (in other words, enforcing rules lol) so we above all should understand the need to follow even the rules we don't like, because we WILL be asking others to do that next time we go to work.

    ----

    A last point the Mike brings up is important also, the point about "Public Property".

    Several times a day I have to explain to people the same things Mike said. "Yes this is public property-no you can't just come here and do what you want" (this is my usual refrain to Skateboarders lol). Ledgerwood's example about the Park and doing donuts is pretty good. (as an extreme example) Lots of Airports are public property, you can't walk across the tarmac anytime you want even if no planes are around. Every military base in the country is public property, but, well, you get the picture

    The property where you can do what you want when you want is called "your own private property" lol, public property is property held in trust for everyone. And public authorities should (and here in Texas do) have not only the right, but the duty to regulate the use of that land.

    Of course, no one I deal with wants to hear any of that (any justification about why they can't do what they wan't, one guy proteted "but this college is "Community property"...... I told him I'll remember that if we ever get divorced ). People are only concerned with why I am denying them their "freedom" lol. I just tell them those are the rules, my job is to enforce the rules and thus maintain the balance between freedom and order, because freedom without order is called anarchy.
    Last edited by Black Caesar; 12-21-2007, 06:41 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Alright, this thread gets back on topic or we'll never know, cause I'll lock it.

    This thread is not about:
    1) What Michael Ledgerwood would do to Andy Taylor if he were a campus police officer.

    2) Dissecting why Mr. Taylor did what he did, etc.

    This is why we can't have nice things, people.

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael Ledgerwood
    replied
    Andy,

    Sorry I am not going to turn this into a personal thread so I will refrain from saying what I want to say. As I mentioned I am not attacking you or attempting to be rude in any way shape or form.

    1) It doesn't matter what the officer said. He told you it was against policy. Therefore you should have said, ok officer sorry we will park and wait for the wife.

    2) Questioning policy itself isn't poor judgement. Your poor judgement came when he told you the reasons why ( damage to a light ) and you continued to do it knowing the college didn't want you to.

    As I mentioned the college has the right to make its own policies. It may be public property - doesn't mean its a free for all. A city park is public doesn't mean you can do doughnuts in the playground. The policies set forth by the college I can assure you were reviewed by lawyers who would not let the college make illegal policies for fear of a law suit.

    3) I am aware you flagged down the officer. My comment regarding terry stops was a general comment placed for your knowledge. Since there was some question as to whether an officer could legally stop you for that I felt it prudent to state that comment.

    4) You knew the activity would look suspicious you shouldn't have done it. I don't know what you do for a living but I assume it is security related since you're on this board. With that said, you should have the knowledge to say to yourself "this is going to look suspicious I don't want to bother or be hasseled by the cops". Flagging him down doesn't cut it. You have no idea if someone had called you in and therefore your actions might have resulted in waisted paperwork. You are also lucky you found a nice cop. In these situations I am not so nice. But then again it cost us several thousand to repair a 20 foot section of chain link fence that was destroyed as a result of "drivers ed". I don't even want to know what a light would cost. My rule of thumb is if I think my actions will look suspicious I don't do them - thats just common sense imo.

    5) You never said you were driving through parking spaces and I never said you did. Again a general statement. It is my personal expierience with dealing with this that is what most people do.

    In the grand scheme of things this is minor instance. I have only came close to trespassing someone for this once and that was because the gentleman became agressive but I'm sure he was up to more than just "drivers ed". I have dealt with 100's if not 1000's of drivers ed instances on my job. Every time it frustrates me. It takes me away from my regular duties, wastes my time repeating myself, and for the few moments of the initial contact - places me in potential jeopardy (even if I am flagged down I have no idea who you are). I personally agree, it is a stupid policy. However, I have seen the financial side as a result of the damage. In a perfect world this wouldn't happen but as long as there are dishonest morons out there we will have to live with rules like this. Its your job as a law abiding citizen to obey the rules. Even though the cop didn't directly ask you to leave you should have left after he told you it was against the rules. Thats just my opinion on the matter.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andy Taylor
    replied
    Michael:
    Read my post again.
    1. The officer never asked me to move on. If he had asked me to do so I would have complied.
    2. Why is questioning a policy poor judgement? A PUBLIC COLLEGE is not the same as private property. It is part of government. Our system of government is based upon what we, the people of this country vote on. And what our elected officials put into place on our behalf. I see questioning governmental policies as not only a right that every American enjoys, but a civic duty as well. To cower in fear of government is something we should NEVER sink to in this country.
    3. I flagged down the officer. We were never stopped on a Terry Stop or any other type of stop. My son and I had stopped the car to discuss his progress.
    4. I knew the activity would look suspicious, which is why I flagged him down in the first place.
    5. Where did I say we were driving through parking spaces? We stayed within the speed limit and only drove the correct direction on the designated driveways.
    Last edited by Andy Taylor; 12-21-2007, 01:33 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael Ledgerwood
    replied
    Andy,

    Please forgive me, my reply might seem rather harsh and I don't mean it that way. First off let me say that the fact you are even questioning the policy and disregarding it by continuing the lesson is extremely poor judgement and setting a bad example for your son.

    The college, whether public or private, has the right to set its own policies in relation to student / employee safety. State traffic code has nothing to do with drivers ed. What you need to understand is when you set foot on that campus, they become responsible for you to a point. Parking lots weren't designed for drivers ed training. The way the college is looking at it is maybe your driving along in a non designated area of the parking lot (i.e. driving down the middle of some parking stalls) where cars don't normally go. Maybe your son hits a storm drain and somehow damages your car. Next thing there is a law suit against the college. Or perhaps you damage a light or something and flee. The college then has to pay for it and if their public maybe taxes will have to be raised for the damage.

    You can probably see where they are coming from. You should have stopped when the officer told you to, regardless of what he said. I don't work for a college but rather a large aerospace company and this is a problem we deal with all the time. I can assure you that had you not listened to me in this situation you would be talking to the local pd. You showed extremely poor judgement in continuing the lesson after talking with the officer. You showed even worse judgement in the fact that you come onto a web based forum and pubicly question the policy and wheter or not he had the right to do that. Guess what, he did you didn't. Stopping a drivers ed car doesn't fall under a traffic stop. It is a Terry Stop, at this point you would be investigated as a suspicous person at minimum a trespasser. My advice is sit down with your son and explain to him what you did was wrong. Explain that you should have obeyed the lawful request of the officer and that violating policies is not a good thing. I applaud you for attempting to be safe with regards to the drivers ed though. But next time obey the person that asks you to move on.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andy Taylor
    replied
    BC: Thank you for your input. It will be interesting to see what your sister has to say about CA specifically.

    Leave a comment:

Leaderboard

Collapse
Working...
X