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excessive force ruling in US circuit court involving security

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  • #16
    Originally posted by msofin View Post
    All of my training in Pennsylvania (Act 235, Allied, Wackenhutt, Vector..) told us we can only use the minimal force to end the attack. For example, if someone comes at you with a baseball bat, you can use your baton to deflect blows. But pulling your firearm and using it would be considered excessive fore. .
    ... I do not even know what to say to that.
    "A good deed’s like pissing yourself in dark pants. Warm feeling but no one notices." - Jacob Taylor

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Mr. Security View Post
      What I'm referring to is young guys pumped up on adrenalin and anger who intend to manhandle a suspect to teach him a lesson for engaging in pursuit or for some other offense taken personally.

      Admit it or not, you know that this happens.
      Despite what you think, we don't take every pursuit or offense personally and intend to rough suspects up to "teach them a lesson." I might not know the suspect, I don't know their victim, and they didn't personally affect me. Once they are in custody, it's on to the next call. We get physcologically screened for this job so that we don't have a bunch of people with anger issues willing to take it out on suspects. You're letting a few too many Dirty Harry movies influence your ideas of what real police work is all about. The whole concept of "street justice" lives on only in movies such as Training Day.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Mr. Chaple View Post
        ... I do not even know what to say to that.
        I hadn't picked up on that till you quoted it. That's crazy for at least 3 reasons I can think of.

        -This ain't Star Wars, it's real life.

        -If you are carrying a firearm and try to "Baton fence" with someone who has a superior weapon (like a baseball bat) and lose the guy with Bat just got a new weapon, your firearm. That puts everyone in danger.

        -This ain't Star Wars, it's real life.

        If that's what Pennsylvania really expects of SOs, I'd find another job pronto.
        ~Black Caesar~
        Corbier's Commandos

        " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Black Caesar View Post
          I hadn't picked up on that till you quoted it. That's crazy for at least 3 reasons I can think of.

          -This ain't Star Wars, it's real life.

          -If you are carrying a firearm and try to "Baton fence" with someone who has a superior weapon (like a baseball bat) and lose the guy with Bat just got a new weapon, your firearm. That puts everyone in danger.

          -This ain't Star Wars, it's real life.

          If that's what Pennsylvania really expects of SOs, I'd find another job pronto.
          I carry a a very durable straight baton (http://www.copsplus.com/prodnum4110.php) I wouldn't necessarily call it an inferior weapon.

          My response is based on the training I have received through Pa Act 235 training and MEB certification through AlliedBarton. The bulk of my baton training has been through the MEB certification.

          I can only speculate the average actor yielding a striking weapon would not charge at you 20 feet away allowing ample time to drawl and aim a firearm. I would speculate the average actor would, at least attempt to, conceal the striking weapon until close enough to attack with little or no warning. If you try to drawl a firearm in a close (~5 feet or less) attack more than likely your firearm will be knocked from your hand before you would be able to aim. At least with the baton you should be able to get it out in enough time to block the first blow (and don't forget to create space between yourself and the actor.) Also, we should take into account who is yielding the striking weapon (such as a baseball bat, golf club or even a cane). Would we ever be able to justify drawling a firearm on an elderly man or woman or a young child in defense to a bat? It seems like were looking into the murky waters of the profession, one of the many gray areas we have to deal with day in and day out.

          I certainly will check with my DT on this scenario when I see him in about 3-4 weeks.

          I am sincere about this because I am not sure, is the Star Wars reference referring to the light sabers?
          Last edited by msofin; 12-17-2007, 05:53 PM. Reason: add to post

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          • #20
            Originally posted by msofin View Post
            I carry a a very durable straight baton (http://www.copsplus.com/prodnum4110.php) I wouldn't necessarily call it an inferior weapon.
            Any weapon that does not almost guarantee success against whatever you are fighting (and that you get to go homealive and uninjured at the end of your shift) is an inferior weapon.

            NO club (including another baseball bat) fits the bill against any other club, period.

            My response is based on the training I have received through Pa Act 235 training and MEB certification through AlliedBarton. The bulk of my baton training has been through the MEB certification.
            Did they actually teach you to go Force on Force with someone with the same or similar weapon? Really? That's just the most insane thing I've ever heard, period. That's just a good way to get you hurt or killed, it makes no sense to me at all.

            I can only speculate the average actor yielding a striking weapon would not charge at you 20 feet away allowing ample time to drawl and aim a firearm. I would speculate the average actor would, at least attempt to, conceal the striking weapon until close enough to attack with little or no warning. If you try to drawl a firearm in a close (~5 feet or less) attack more than likely your firearm will be knocked from your hand before you would be able to aim. At least with the baton you should be able to get it out in enough time to block the first blow (and don't forget to create space between yourself and the actor.)
            ???

            No No No No No. I hope Bill Warnok doesn't read this one lol. Especially the part about 20 feet being ample time to draw a firearm against someone with a striking weapon LOL.

            And you don't aim at someone who is 5 feet from you (of course no one but God and your spouse should BE within 5 feet of you ever, and only sometimes for the spouse). Down here my instructors in the Academy taught "Anchor Point" shooting (drawing the weapon and shooting from the hip without aiming). Every time we go to the Range anchor point shooting is part of the course of fire. Do they teach something like that in the class you took?

            I certainly will check with my DT on this scenario when I see him in about 3-4 weeks.

            I am sincere about this because I am not sure, is the Star Wars reference referring to the light sabers?
            Yea, it is. Light Sabres being damn near magical implements of personal safety. If we were Jedi using a club against a bat would make sense, but we aren't and it don't lol.
            Last edited by Black Caesar; 12-17-2007, 05:52 PM.
            ~Black Caesar~
            Corbier's Commandos

            " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by msofin View Post
              I carry a a very durable straight baton (http://www.copsplus.com/prodnum4110.php) I wouldn't necessarily call it an inferior weapon.

              My response is based on the training I have received through Pa Act 235 training and MEB certification through AlliedBarton. The bulk of my baton training has been through the MEB certification.

              I can only speculate the average actor yielding a striking weapon would not charge at you 20 feet away allowing ample time to drawl and aim a firearm. I would speculate the average actor would, at least attempt to, conceal the striking weapon until close enough to attack with little or no warning. If you try to drawl a firearm in a close (~5 feet or less) attack more than likely your firearm will be knocked from your hand before you would be able to aim. At least with the baton you should be able to get it out in enough time to block the first blow (and don't forget to create space between yourself and the actor.) Also, we should take into account who is yielding the striking weapon (such as a baseball bat, golf club or even a cane). Would we ever be able to justify drawling a firearm on an elderly man or woman or a young child in defense to a bat? It seems like were looking into the murky waters of the profession, one of the many gray areas we have to deal with day in and day out.

              I certainly will check with my DT on this scenario when I see him in about 3-4 weeks.

              I am sincere about this because I am not sure, is the Star Wars reference referring to the light sabers?
              YES, I could justify drawing a firearm on someone attacking Me with a bat as a deadly threat. Whether its a 12 year old kid or a 60 year old female doesn't make a bat any less a deadly weapon.
              "Get yourself a shovel cause your in deep Sh*t"

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              • #22
                I hope I don't cloud up the issue any more than it may already be, but...

                The Supreme Court has addressed Use of Force in numerous case law(Tennessee v. Garner, Graham v. Conner, etc.). The common theme is using force to protect yourself or someone else from bodily harm or death by reasonable means. They often refer to "objective reasonableness." The question should always be asked, "how much water is needed to extinquish a fire?" The answer is, "it depends. As much as it takes." Using this hypothetical, it would depend on the size, intensity and fuel feeding the fire. When it's out, it's out. Period. These training companies that say "minimal force" have yet to determine what that is. You are not expected to experiment when you are in a physical confrontation. Remember the totality of the circumstances and why you need to do what you are doing.
                Jerry
                http://personalprotectionconcepts.info

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by craig333 View Post
                  I'd like to think I can see both points. Certainly you do want to gain control quickly for your own safety. On the other hand, expecting somebody to instantly go limp isn't right either. I certainly hope the force used is only force necessary. No one is going to care if you were a little rough with some murder suspect. Come to find out he was slow responding to commands because he was deaf is not going to be looked at quite the same.

                  A baseball can can be deadly weapon. Unfortunately just holding one doesn't qualify. We all know how fast that can change. Those kinds of situations are where police can react a lot more proactively than we are allowed to.
                  Im not sure what the definition of a deadly weapon is in your state but here a deadly weapon is any weapon that is capable of causing great bodily harm, death or permanent disfigurement.
                  Last edited by bigdog; 12-17-2007, 06:20 PM.
                  "Get yourself a shovel cause your in deep Sh*t"

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                  • #24
                    Its a deadly weapon when its used as a deadly weapon. Other times its just a bat.

                    I'm on my way to a baseball game. I trespass on your site because its a shortcut. I don't say anything threatening or hold the bat in a threatening manner when you come across me. Can you draw your firearm and have me drop the bat? No. Should you be cautious and maintain some distance in case the situation changes? Of course.

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                    • #25
                      Was anyone else surprised this came from the 9th Circuit?
                      Last edited by Lawson; 12-18-2007, 12:27 AM.
                      "Alright guys listen up, ya'll have probably heard this before, Jackson vs. Securiplex corporation; I am a private security officer, I have no State or governmental authority. I stand as an ordinary citizen. I have no right to; detain, interrogate or otherwise interfere with your personal property-... basically all that means is I'm a cop."-Officer Ernie
                      "The Curve" 1998

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by bigdog View Post
                        § 505. Use of force in self-protection.

                        (a) Use of force justifiable for protection of the person.--The use of force upon or toward another person is justifiable when the actor believes that such force is immediately necessary for the purpose of protecting himself against the use of unlawful force by such other person on the present occasion.

                        The use of deadly force is not justifiable under this section unless the actor believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death, serious bodily injury, kidnapping or sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat; nor is it justifiable if:
                        1. the actor, with the intent of causing death or serious bodily injury, provoked the use of force against himself in the same encounter; or
                        2. the actor knows that he can avoid the necessity of using such force with complete safety by retreating or by surrendering possession of a thing to a person asserting a claim of right thereto or by complying with a demand that he abstain from any action which he has no duty to take, except that:
                          (A) the actor is not obliged to retreat from his dwelling or place of work, unless he was the initial aggressor or is assailed in his place of work by another person whose place of work the actor knows it to be; and
                          (B) a public officer justified in using force in the performance of his duties or a person justified in using force in his assistance or a person justified in using force in making an arrest or preventing an escape is not obliged to desist from efforts to perform such duty, effect such arrest or prevent such escape because of resistance or threatened resistance by or on behalf of the person against whom such action is directed.
                        A baseball bat would most definitely cause serious bodily injury so you can use a firearm to stop the persons attack.
                        Bigdog~
                        You are correct sir! A baseball bat can cause serious bodily harm to include death! Therefore, a firearm would be permisable and a correct response in that example.

                        Be Safe,

                        Hank
                        " We are determined that before the sun sets on this terrible struggle, our flag will be recognized throughout the world as a symbol of freedom on one hand and of overwhelming force on the other" - General George C. Marshall

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by craig333 View Post
                          Its a deadly weapon when its used as a deadly weapon. Other times its just a bat.

                          I'm on my way to a baseball game. I trespass on your site because its a shortcut. I don't say anything threatening or hold the bat in a threatening manner when you come across me. Can you draw your firearm and have me drop the bat? No. Should you be cautious and maintain some distance in case the situation changes? Of course.
                          Yes. But I, and any other sensible S/O, would politely ask you to set the bat down so I could safely speak with you (to explain why you are not permitted to be where you are, I try to give people the benefit of doubt). If you refused to lay the bat down after two or more requests or if you started to advance towards me after I confronted you... then it comes out. Not so much as a warning, but just so I am not trying to "drawl" my side arm whilst theoretical BG "charges" at me.
                          "A good deed’s like pissing yourself in dark pants. Warm feeling but no one notices." - Jacob Taylor

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by LPGuy View Post
                            Despite what you think, we don't take every pursuit or offense personally and intend to rough suspects up to "teach them a lesson." I might not know the suspect, I don't know their victim, and they didn't personally affect me. Once they are in custody, it's on to the next call. We get physcologically screened for this job so that we don't have a bunch of people with anger issues willing to take it out on suspects. You're letting a few too many Dirty Harry movies influence your ideas of what real police work is all about. The whole concept of "street justice" lives on only in movies such as Training Day.
                            Well I guess that proves it. You don't do it, so other cops don't either. And even if I think I saw abuse, it's my eyes that are playing tricks on me, according to Black Caesar. No wonder so many professionals agree that the first step in solving a problem is to admit that it exists.
                            Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Mr. Security View Post
                              Well I guess that proves it. You don't do it, so other cops don't either. And even if I think I saw abuse, it's my eyes that are playing tricks on me, according to Black Caesar. No wonder so many professionals agree that the first step in solving a problem is to admit that it exists.
                              Have you ever had any defensive tactics training at all? If not your eye'sisn't playing tricks on you, you're simply misinformed. That's not my fault nor is it LPGuy's.

                              Edit: to clarify, I thought things were just so horrible too till I was actually trained to do it and had it done on me. It IS brutal, and that's reality.
                              Last edited by Black Caesar; 12-18-2007, 05:58 PM.
                              ~Black Caesar~
                              Corbier's Commandos

                              " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Are you complaining there are no bad cops? All excessive force complaints are invalid? Who's not being realistic here?

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