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Gunman Kills Eight, Then Kills Himself, at Omaha Shopping Mall

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  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Originally posted by OccamsRazor View Post
    http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/06/mal...ity/index.html

    Don Greene, a former FBI agent who has written a book on mall security...Should these private security guards be armed? "Absolutely not," said Greene. Greene said if a security officer were to pull a gun on an armed individual in a mall, it could result in "the gunfight at the 'OK corral,' and then we might have 23 people killed instead of eight."
    Lets see if I can expand on this... Here we go:

    Originally posted by Mall Security Expert Mode
    The police officer has 600-900 hours of training, so therefore his armed response is justified. The security guard has "minimal" firearms training, coupled with the fact he is not a police officer, simply means that an untrained wannabe cop will kill innocent people by shooting it out (and of course missing, after all, barney fife can't hit the broad side of a barn) with the suspect.

    The only thing the mall security guard should do is call 911, then flee the scene immediately so the shooter does not become provoked by the uniformed presence.

    In fact, the mall security guards should not be wearing police-like uniforms, as this may provoke a shooter into engaging in aggression. They should be wearing soft uniforms which make them look like the customer service representatives they should be.

    Only a trained police officer should be called upon to engage in a shootout with an armed man. While sometimes citizens, lawfully carrying concealed may do this, we cannot advocate vigilantism, and strongly suggest that all malls have 'no weapons signs.' Even worse would be having armed mall security guards, with such low hiring standards and low training requirements, attempting to do the police's job.
    Did I regurgitate the current prevailing thought enough?

    Leave a comment:


  • OccamsRazor
    Guest replied
    Just a few quotes for the masses, then off to bed.

    Originally posted by Jeff Cooper
    "Fight back! Whenever you are offered violence, fight back! The aggressor does not fear the law, so he must be taught to fear you. Whatever the risk, and at whatever the cost, fight back!"
    and

    Originally posted by Jeff Cooper
    "There are no victims, only volunteers. You volunteer by looking uncertain and afraid. You volunteer by being, as grass-eaters invariably are, unprepared to confront the hazards of life."

    Leave a comment:


  • DeputyJ
    replied
    OccamsRazor wrote, "I wish I had been. 8 may have been 6, or 3, or maybe even none. Sure, it's a risk to intentionally put yourself in harm's way, but could you live with it, knowing you may have been able to stop someone from committing a massacre, or even saving one person?"

    You sir, according to Lt. Col. Grossman, are a sheepdog. Infact, I believe most of the individuals on this site are sheepdogs (I am too). Our job is to protect the sheep from the wolves (for those of you who don't know the reference about sheepdogs, do a google search and type the words Lt. Col. Grossman, sheepdogs, trust me it's worth the read).

    Stay Safe.

    Leave a comment:


  • OccamsRazor
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by PoliceEMSFire
    Expert? Sounds like a dumbass to me.
    Originally posted by MiniApples Security
    I agree, a dumbass 1st class!
    That's why I named him what I did in the quote.

    While I continue to fervently hope that someone, somewhere will finally get it, the fact that signs won't stop people who don't want to be stopped, and criminals, by job description, don't obey laws, will continue to kill innocent people.

    Federal employees I work with were discussing this incident today, and the general consensus was "I'm glad I wasn't there! I pray I'll never be caught in that sort of thing!"

    I wish I had been. 8 may have been 6, or 3, or maybe even none. Sure, it's a risk to intentionally put yourself in harm's way, but could you live with it, knowing you may have been able to stop someone from committing a massacre, or even saving one person?

    Prepare yourself and get some sort of training, or cower in a fitting room, waiting to be shot.

    Die on your knees, crying and praying, or die on your feet, aiming and firing. I've made my choice.

    Leave a comment:


  • Minneapolis Security
    replied
    Originally posted by FireEMSPolice View Post
    Expert? Sounds like a dumbass to me.
    I agree, a dumbass 1st class!

    Leave a comment:


  • FireEMSPolice
    replied
    Originally posted by OccamsRazor View Post
    Tell that to an 'expert' on mall security:



    http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/06/mal...ity/index.html
    Expert? Sounds like a dumbass to me.

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Caesar
    replied
    Originally posted by Minneapolis Security View Post
    If he was an undercover officer, he isn't anymore! I don't see how you can be "undercover" and then show up in swat gear and smile for the camera, and then go back and work "undercover".

    Its kinda like virginity, you can't get it back.
    In a Mass Casualty shooting incident everyone goes (especially when you have a smallish department of only 200 officers) and the consequences be damned. It's not something you think about, and you sure as heck don't say "but I can't let no one see my face, so I'll let my brother officers handle this SHTF situation while I stay back". Sure it might prevent him from going back to what he was doing, so what?

    And if he's a Narcotics Officer like I suspect, he'd have his ready gear in his trunk ready to go.

    What we're saying is that there are loads of reasons why a police officer would look like that. Look at the numerous photos from this incident, you don't see anyone else who looks like that guy, that to me points to a special assignment officer of some type.

    Leave a comment:


  • Minneapolis Security
    replied
    Originally posted by davis002 View Post
    You are a smart man, because I couldn't possibly agree more.

    http://www.startribune.com/nation/12232621.html

    Entering Von Maur's in the Westroads Mall, Hawkins promptly drew the attention of security officers.

    "Mall security actually spotted Mr. Hawkins upon entry. He was under surveillance at that time, just based on his actions," Police Chief Thomas Warren said Thursday.

    But the officers were unarmed, Warren said. "Mall security did not have a chance to intervene."

    Spotted by mall security upon entry........but the officers were unarmed.....

    When will these "gun free zone" blissninies learn?

    Leave a comment:


  • OccamsRazor
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Minneapolis Security View Post
    Maybe theses mall management companies will finally be sued, and forced to arm the mall security officers.

    Armed, professionally trained officers, onsite could have stopped or limited the carnage.
    Tell that to an 'expert' on mall security:

    Originally posted by Dumbass
    Don Greene, a former FBI agent who has written a book on mall security...Should these private security guards be armed? "Absolutely not," said Greene. Greene said if a security officer were to pull a gun on an armed individual in a mall, it could result in "the gunfight at the 'OK corral,' and then we might have 23 people killed instead of eight."
    http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/06/mal...ity/index.html

    Leave a comment:


  • Minneapolis Security
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Caesar View Post
    What I was thinking as well, though he might have been on duty as well, working narcotics. How do people expect you to buy dope from a biker gang (for example) if you're clean cut and have a military style haircut?

    3 years ago when I went to instructor school there was a guy who worked with a local inter-agency Anti Drug Task Force. We called him Jesus because that's who he looked like with the Goatee and long hair lol.


    If he was an undercover officer, he isn't anymore! I don't see how you can be "undercover" and then show up in swat gear and smile for the camera, and then go back and work "undercover".

    Its kinda like virginity, you can't get it back.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chimpie
    replied
    Originally posted by Minneapolis Security View Post


    What a outstanding looking officer, . That look flys in Nebraska? He looks homeless.

    If that's how the homeless look in your area I'd be like

    Leave a comment:


  • davis002
    replied
    Originally posted by Minneapolis Security View Post
    Armed, professionally trained officers, onsite could have stopped or limited the carnage.
    You are a smart man, because I couldn't possibly agree more.

    Leave a comment:


  • NRM_Oz
    replied
    I had a covert role for an inhouse theft ring from a small hardware chain. I did not shave for 3 days, wore my dungarees with the holes / grease stains and the grottiest t-shirt possible. Even LP did not know who we were (4 of us) and we scored 5 staff doing sweetheart deals in a day. I shower and shaved at a truck stop to return in a suit looking more like me than some homless man (without the shopping cart).

    Leave a comment:


  • Curtis Baillie
    replied
    You should see some of my pictures when I worked undercover.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hank1
    replied
    Originally posted by FireEMSPolice View Post
    Alot of these malls post "No Guns" signs, even around here. Easy pickins for an armed shooter knowing everyone inside, including Security are unarmed and defenseless. Alot of them also have unarmed security but would rather pay EXTRA to have a police presence. How about this:

    1) Take the useless signs down or remove the "no weapons" language from your Standards of Conduct"

    2) Arm your Security Officers. Most of them (at least ones that I know) are shooters, retired/active law enforcement or experienced armed security officers. Pay them a decent wage and let the police do their job by responding for an arrest without a constant police presence. Sounds like money saved to me.

    If I recall, it was an off duty police officer in Salt Lake City with a concealed handgun that stopped the shooter.
    You couldn't be more right. A vast majority of law abiding citizens, if armed would comply with the " No weapons" policy and leave their weapons secured at home or in their vehicles. But as well all Know, the problem is the standard issue POS who fails to comply with weapons ban policy. Mall Management has to come to the realization that their customers and employees need an armed security force to help defend the facility.

    Leave a comment:

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