Why not 100,000 V tasers?

[ddog]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/15/world/main3504859.shtml

Hall Monitors in grade school will be toting these babies before long. Terrorists have been cited stealing extra half pints of expired milk in the cafeteria and 6th graders have been seen smoking in the bathroom after school.

[N. A. Corbier]

I'm missing how RCMP using crisis management techniques (Hit the violent crazy man with the taser before he hurts himself or someone else) equates to hall monitors having them.

Now, where you live, school district police officers as well as deputy sheriffs assigned as SROs usually have tasers. And have used them on children.

As to the question of voltage... Because 100,000 volts would drain the battery twice as fast. You can't really lean on the trigger while screaming, "COMPLY! COMPLY! COMPLY IN THE NAME OF THE CROWN!" if it runs out early.

[Craig S]

"Don't tase me, bro!....OUCH!....OUCH!" classic sound bite that comes to mind.

I'm sorry, just couldn't help myself.

[SecTrainer]

The voltage isn't really the determinant with Tasers. You could double the voltage, but it wouldn't double the effect.

[ddog]

Several police with one crushing his neck with their knee was a nice finishing manuever, immediatley after dual taser shots. That one may top the Tampa Airport scene when a company of ICE sharpshooters bagged a retarded person for running away from people chasing him. Or the drunkard lady getting tasered to death out West.

Thank God for portable camera technology. At least a lot of this is being recorded for historical evidence.

Well, tasers are legal for civilians to use now, and they don't even have to get certified in using them (out of a uniform). Its going to be a little more entertaining when tasers cost less than $50 with $10/refills. The mentally handicapped will have a fighting chance at that point. Otherwise, its starting to look like Hitler's (or Bush's) intellectual cleansing of society: so everyone can fight for minimum wage jobs equally. Either that or its just easy target practice for otherwise inexperienced Protection Officers.

When does this repulse people enough to stop this trend? When its their neighbors, friends, family, kids, Mother, ...??? Send those Officers to Chicago inner-city Patrols if they need real hands-on training!

[JSam21]

Is it just me or...

Does it seem that DDog doesn't like law enforcement?

[SecTrainer]

Several police with one crushing his neck with their knee was a nice finishing manuever, immediatley after dual taser shots. That one may top the Tampa Airport scene when a company of ICE sharpshooters bagged a retarded person for running away from people chasing him. Or the drunkard lady getting tasered to death out West.

Thank God for portable camera technology. At least a lot of this is being recorded for historical evidence.

Well, tasers are legal for civilians to use now, and they don't even have to get certified in using them (out of a uniform). Its going to be a little more entertaining when tasers cost less than $50 with $10/refills. The mentally handicapped will have a fighting chance at that point. Otherwise, its starting to look like Hitler's (or Bush's) intellectual cleansing of society: so everyone can fight for minimum wage jobs equally. Either that or its just easy target practice for otherwise inexperienced Protection Officers.

When does this repulse people enough to stop this trend? When its their neighbors, friends, family, kids, Mother, ...??? Send those Officers to Chicago inner-city Patrols if they need real hands-on training!

Lose the political commentary, please, or I'll be tempted to start design work on a 100,000 V Taser just for you.

[OccamsRazor]

Quotes from the story, FTW:

On the video, a bystander tried to calm Dziekanski down, but he didn't understand. Then, he picked up a computer and threw it, and then a wooden piece of furniture.

Aggressive behavior, disorderly conduct (or Canuckian equivalent).

The video shows him backing up, raising his hands and turning away before the police stun him with the 50,000-volt Taser, sending him to the floor screaming before he's stunned again and the Mounties pin down his head and limbs to handcuff him.

Been TASERed for training one too many times- I understand the screaming.

"Probably the most disturbing part is one of the officers using his leg and his knee to pin his head and his neck against the ground," said Paul Pritchard, who made the video.

How is a control tactic disturbing? Standard DT move to control a suspect's movements. Oh, nevermind...Canada.

"I don't know why it ever became a police incident," said retired Vancouver police Supt. Ron Foyle. "It didn't seem that he made any threatening gestures towards them."

No wonder you're retired, Ron. Someone creates a disturbance in an airport, throwing computers and furniture, and you don't know why it was a police incident? Second guessing officer's actions when you have no idea of the circumstances, save a sole video shot by a tourist from one point of view? Glad I never worked under you.

"Not a lot goes on in an airport. So, if you're there and there's an incident, sometimes they might overreact. It looks like that's what happened in Vancouver," aviation expert Michael Boyd said on CBS News' The Early Show Thursday.

Ah, consult an 'aviation expert' about a LE issue, good job CBS. Next time a plane crashes, I'm calling one of my old history (European Pre-Industrial to be exact) profs for her opinions.

"You've got to question whether one person standing there with three or four officers is a threat," Boyd told Early Show co-anchor Hannah Storm. "It doesn't look good for the Canadian police right now."

Again with the 'aviation expert' judging law enforcement situations. I've been IN situations where one person standing in front of SIX officers was a threat, and have scar on the web of my left thumb to prove it, Mr. Boyd. I can't compute how many pounds of fuel a fully-loaded 747 needs to fly from NYC to Moscow with a safe reserve, so try not to second-guess LE defensive-tactics.

Im sure, if the Vancouver ME is any good, we'll know shortly why this guy died...I'm guessing it wasn't a TASER application.

Several police with one crushing his neck with their knee was a nice finishing manuever, immediatley after dual taser shots.

Hmmm....

"Probably the most disturbing part is one of the officers using his leg and his knee to pin his head and his neck against the ground,"

A control move that does not 'crush necks'. If it did, I would be dead, and so would every other cop in the US. DT training includes being the aggressor in a scenario. I've had this done a few hundred times in training, and I'm alive...Or maybe you were in Vancouver for this incident, and saw something NO ONE else saw?

That one may top the Tampa Airport scene when a company of ICE sharpshooters bagged a retarded person for running away from people chasing him.

Or maybe you meant the guy in Miami? The one who was singing loudly on the plane, acting bizarre (by passenger accounts), stood up when the Air Marshals approached him, told them he had a bomb in his backpack, and made a move to reach into said pack? Yeah, I would've shot him too.

BTW, it was one Air Marshal who shot him, not 3-5 platoons of Immigration and Customs Enforcement snipers.

Or the drunkard lady getting tasered to death out West.

Where was that? Never heard of it. There was that woman who was on her way to rehab, when, drunk and high, she freaked out in the airport. She was arrested, and strangled herself trying to get out of the handcuffs. Darwin award there.

[sgtnewby]

Trust me, I just got tazed a week ago, and 50,000 is plenty. However, I would have done things a little differant. I would have taken the cartrage off and pulled the trigger to show him what was about to happen if he didn't comply. Maybe that would have changed his behavior. If not, then do what you have to do. But, I didn't see from the video if that was done.

[ddog]

Trust me, I just got tazed a week ago, and 50,000 is plenty. However, I would have done things a little differant. I would have taken the cartrage off and pulled the trigger to show him what was about to happen if he didn't comply. Maybe that would have changed his behavior. If not, then do what you have to do. But, I didn't see from the video if that was done.

So if one 50K V is plenty, then 2 consecutive blasts and immediately diving on the neck with a knee should be enough to severe the skull from the atlas or tip of the spine the skull 'sits' on. In LE, its critical not to combine containment methods together without thinking. There would be no resistance after 2 taser blasts, and the Rambo diving the knee on the neck could have killed him alone in breaking his neck.

I guess it was a good opportunity to 'try' out many different 'tools' they never have the opportunity to 'try', but it seemed neglegent due to overwhelming force odds, multiple tasers, and the 'finishing' wrestling move at the end.

Unfortunately, there must not be any 'training' on combining effects with other lethal constraining methods. Its like anything else, similar techniques combined are usually synergistic and are much stronger effects than the sum of the individual components.

[Justice_Hound]

So if one 50K V is plenty, then 2 consecutive blasts and immediately diving on the neck with a knee should be enough to severe the skull from the atlas or tip of the spine the skull 'sits' on. In LE, its critical not to combine containment methods together without thinking. There would be no resistance after 2 taser blasts, and the Rambo diving the knee on the neck could have killed him alone in breaking his neck.

I guess it was a good opportunity to 'try' out many different 'tools' they never have the opportunity to 'try', but it seemed neglegent due to overwhelming force odds, multiple tasers, and the 'finishing' wrestling move at the end.

Unfortunately, there must not be any 'training' on combining effects with other lethal constraining methods. Its like anything else, similar techniques combined are usually synergistic and are much stronger effects than the sum of the individual components.

Dude, you can go on and on about this topic
until you are out of breath but YOU were NOT there.
As a whole I have a lot of respect for the RCMP.
While you are intitled to an opinion you are NOT
aparently a use of force expert so leave wrongdoing
judgement to the real professionals.

[Cactus]

personally I don't see anything wrong at all with what was done. It sucks that he died, but tasers MUST continue to be used. I would much rather see somebody get tasered then shot.

[ddog]

Dude, you can go on and on about this topic
until you are out of breath but YOU were NOT there.
As a whole I have a lot of respect for the RCMP.
While you are intitled to an opinion you are NOT
aparently a use of force expert so leave wrongdoing
judgement to the real professionals.

Dude,

How the HELL do you know what a REAL professional is?
I have 2 ABET engineering degrees, so why should I bow down to
GED/High School graduate levels that are ordered to give specific results versus to assess the facts?

NO one was there except the Police, camera man, dead man, and few others. Effectively, you are seeing the ONLY relevent evidence of the incident other than drug tests of the dead man/Police, taser calibration evidence/dual taser shot physiological tests (any volunteers?), and xray of the dead man's cracked neck.

If you can not observe and report the facts and require someone to tell you what you see, then what gives you the right to tell any one any thing?

[HotelSecurity]

Justice Hound - As a whole the RCMP might be a good police force but the members are human & we Canadian tax payers pay their salaries. We can discuss their tactics if we want to.

[OccamsRazor]

I know I shouldn't feed the troll, but...

Dude,
How the HELL do you know what a REAL professional is?
I have 2 ABET engineering degrees, so why should I bow down to
GED/High School graduate levels that are ordered to give specific results versus to assess the facts?

So what makes you more qualified than the cops that were there, your engineering background? Again with the non-expert opinions, ala the 'aviation expert'.

Wait, who are the folks with the GEDs here? Justice Hound? The RCMP? Are you assuming facts not in evidence again? Attack the argument, not the person with the opposing viewpoint next time.

NO one was there except the Police, camera man, dead man, and few others. Effectively, you are seeing the ONLY relevent evidence of the incident other than drug tests of the dead man/Police, taser calibration evidence/dual taser shot physiological tests (any volunteers?), and xray of the dead man's cracked neck.

What evidence listed above have YOU seen?

BTW, I've been TASERed multiple times, with no ill effects beyond a mild feeling of contempt towards the instructor.