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  • Murder On Post

    How would you guys handle that situation. We had it happen on one of our post's. I think I handled it very well but the boss said my incident report was to short (about a half a page) my argument was we did not know a whole lot at the time. We did not (and still dont) know the vic's name. there were no witnesses no suspect information. Not a whole lot to write. His argument is "when I give a trespass warning they get a 2 page report but a murder they get a half a page." While I see how it looks strange there was not a whole lot I could do.

  • #2
    do you have a pd case number ? what time they arrived ? what time the left ? do you know where on the property this happened? is the evidence that was left on property ? was crime lab called out ? some of this may be answered by a simple call to pd dispatch most of the time after some verifaction of who you are, they are willing to give out some of this info, if dispatch wont do it, call the desk sargent durning business hours, most of the time, they will give you the information as long as you tell them it is for your report, if the wont purchase a copy of the police file, most pds will do this for around 5-25 bucks for a simple case file as long as you can prove you need access to it.... then give a copy(ies) to your boss, client, keep on hand in case your subenpoa to court.
    Its not how we die that counts.....
    Its not how we lived that counts....
    all that matters is how we saved that one life that one time by being in the right place at the right time....

    Comment


    • #3
      I have never had this happen to me thankfully but do know of a victim from an assault who was found on a building site who later died after we found him. We had to complete statements (duh), produce ALL information we knew of the case, times of arrival of police, ambulance and any company employees and we obtained statements from them to avoid any 2nd requests and completed the document before sending it off to the client and our company bosses. I would make sure you got the facts down of WHO was where and what did they do and what contacts you have of these witnesses if not required to submit a statement for all attendees.
      "Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer" Sun Tzu

      Comment


      • #4
        Here is the incident report with all the details edited out. I should also notate the post ended at 4 and I stayed until 430 ironing out the details and making sure I had everything I needed. APD was on scene till well after 6am.

        *Incident Report*
        Incident Number: 07-1112001
        Officer Making Report: ____

        Victim Information:
        Hispanic Male Unknown Name

        Suspect Information:
        None At This Time

        Narrative:
        At approximately 130am on November 12th Austin Police Responded to a man down call at ***** ****** ********** near building B. Upon arrival they found the unidentified Hispanic male stabbed and laying on the ground.

        Austin Emergency Medical Services transported to the hospital. Where the victim underwent surgery to correct his wounds. Patient listed in critical condition. Upon last contact with Austin Police the man was still in surgery however he was not expected to survive.

        There were no witnesses to the crime and there is no suspect information at this time. At 430am Austin Police, APD Crime Scene Unit, and Homicide Detectives were still on scene. APD Detective in charge of the investigation is Det. ***** ****** (***-***-****) she requests contact with the manager at ****** ****** ********** to help in identify the victim. Homicide Sergeant at the scene was Sgt. ******* ******* ***-***-****). APD Case number regarding this incident is 07-3160100.

        Comment


        • #5
          Seems pretty good to me (not my format but it covers most things). Your next shift officer SHOULD have continued with a secondary report or additional page to outline WHEN the PD left the scene. Not much more you can say except I probably would have included more info on the victim as in approx age, etc. But when someone is stabbed I don't think it really matters much.
          "Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer" Sun Tzu

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by ChuckyZ73 View Post
            How would you guys handle that situation. We had it happen on one of our post's. I think I handled it very well but the boss said my incident report was to short (about a half a page) my argument was we did not know a whole lot at the time. We did not (and still dont) know the vic's name. there were no witnesses no suspect information. Not a whole lot to write. His argument is "when I give a trespass warning they get a 2 page report but a murder they get a half a page." While I see how it looks strange there was not a whole lot I could do.
            Hard to say with the limited knowledge of the post but...I would include everything your own duties have to do with incident. As in, if someone patrolled the same area earlier/observations, what any monitoring equipment showed at the time, where all your guys were at the time etc etc. In other words, a summary of everything else that was going on at the time of the incident. I would also look at your teams records (operations logs, incident reports, sign-ins etc etc) for the previous shift for anything at all unusual and add those to the report as well. If nothing happened during that shift, than that is what should be stated on your incident report (eg "cursory review of previous and present shift *security documentation* indicates no noteworthy or unusual activity").

            In other words, aside from the most important information- which you already had written on the report- you show that you made at least a marginal effort to investigate the crime through your posts own security record of the time leading up to and during the incident.
            formerly C&A

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            • #7
              ChuckyZ73 - Looks like the information is there. Maybe your supervisor is an ex-LE and thought you should of written a 50 page homicide report. Your company is not the investigating agency the Police are.
              Retail Security Consultant / Expert Witness
              Co-Author - Effective Security Management 6th Edition

              Contributor to Retail Crime, Security and Loss Prevention: An Encyclopedic Reference

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by cocknaces View Post
                Hard to say with the limited knowledge of the post but...I would include everything your own duties have to do with incident. As in, if someone patrolled the same area earlier/observations, what any monitoring equipment showed at the time, where all your guys were at the time etc etc. In other words, a summary of everything else that was going on at the time of the incident. I would also look at your teams records (operations logs, incident reports, sign-ins etc etc) for the previous shift for anything at all unusual and add those to the report as well. If nothing happened during that shift, than that is what should be stated on your incident report (eg "cursory review of previous and present shift *security documentation* indicates no noteworthy or unusual activity").

                In other words, aside from the most important information- which you already had written on the report- you show that you made at least a marginal effort to investigate the crime through your posts own security record of the time leading up to and during the incident.
                I have actually posted on here about this post before. Here

                As far as the rest goes that is a good idea and something I would not have thought of.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Security Consultant View Post
                  ChuckyZ73 - Looks like the information is there. Maybe your supervisor is an ex-LE and thought you should of written a 50 page homicide report. Your cpmpany is not the investigating agency the Police are.
                  People tend to forget that. The police department isn't supposed to compromise their investigate to give a random private citizen (that would be you) information about their case which will go straight to another random private citizen (your client.)

                  If the "event" is the police showed up, secured the scene, and there's a dead body... Exactly how much can you put into a report? You aren't involved in this investigation. If you were, then yes, there's a lot more you could put.

                  Honestly, something like this is a chronological log entry to me. The police showed up on property. They had an incident. The guard was not involved in this incident. They left. Here's the report number.

                  Now, if you FIND a dead body... Then yeah, you're involved.
                  Some Kind of Commando Leader

                  "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    It sounds to me like the report is thorough enough for a security officer. It sounds like your supervisor wants the details involved and is angry at you for not poking your nose into the investigation. By the way I can tell you as a former LEO myself, the less you know the better. You do not want to go to court and be ripped apart by an attorney. If I was your supervisor I would be comending you on how you handled the job not critisizing you in what is already a stressful situation.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ChuckyZ73 View Post
                      I have actually posted on here about this post before. Here

                      As far as the rest goes that is a good idea and something I would not have thought of.
                      Thanks. See my response below to Michaels post-

                      Originally posted by Michael Ledgerwood View Post
                      It sounds to me like the report is thorough enough for a security officer. It sounds like your supervisor wants the details involved and is angry at you for not poking your nose into the investigation. By the way I can tell you as a former LEO myself, the less you know the better. You do not want to go to court and be ripped apart by an attorney. If I was your supervisor I would be comending you on how you handled the job not critisizing you in what is already a stressful situation.


                      Looking at some of the other messages in the thread, what I am saying is basic CYOA or CoverYourOwnA**. No one will want to share information with you, but "security" in general being primarily an information-gathering and documenting service, the customer may very well want thorough reports on anything that could lead to a criminal complaint or civil law suit against them.

                      The one thing I disagree with LE about is how tight they are with information. They want it but do not want to share it. But that is a two way street. The bad part is that law enforcement is NOT liable for the protection of anyone, security (depending on the contract) IS.

                      It all does depend on your post orders and exactly what the customer wants, but as AGENT OF OWNER you have all the same rights as the property owner himself.

                      This is not "the less you know the better". You are the eyes and ears of your customer. Is the less the customer knows the better? The less the actual owner of the property knows, the better? I'll bet the customer, the customers lawyers and the customers insurance carrier do NOT share that view that the less the customer knows the better. Also, as far as ending up on the stand being ripped apart by an attorney, that can happen regardless of what you know or not.

                      Maybe law enforcement has an interest in hording information and not sharing it, but the customer certainly does not and neither does the security officer as an agent of the customer.

                      In fact, the attitude that the police should horde information and demand it from the private citizen or entity while also refusing to share information with the private citizen or entity is, to me, pretty disturbing and is absolutely opposite the very spirit of the free society that law enforcement is sworn to protect.

                      This is what I hate about people at all comparing security officers and law enforcement officers.
                      The S/O acts on behalf of the private entity that is paying him, the P/O acts on behalf of the public bureaucrats that are paying him. It is that simple. Sometimes the roles can be mutually beneficial to both the private and the public entity, but sometimes they come into conflict. And when they do at all come into conflict, the S/O should act on behalf of the private entity that is his customer instead of selling him out to the bureaucracy that is paying the police.
                      Last edited by junkyarddog; 11-13-2007, 09:25 PM. Reason: clarifying
                      formerly C&A

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Security Consultant View Post
                        Your company is not the investigating agency the Police are.
                        Insurance companies do not do investigations on murders committed on property they insure? Lawyers do not use private investigators (or inhouse PI) to investigate murders occurring on property owned by their client?

                        Why this mix up with what we are? As Security we are agents of the owner,
                        as are the insurance companies and the customers lawyers. I can't see interfering with a criminal investigation, but there is nothing wrong with requesting as much info. as you possibly can.


                        Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
                        People tend to forget that. The police department isn't supposed to compromise their investigate to give a random private citizen (that would be you) information about their case which will go straight to another random private citizen (your client.)
                        I agree the PD should not compromise an investigation, but that doesn't mean they can't answer a few questions for 3 minutes. How is the owner of a property a random private citizen? If I own a small warehouse and someone is murdered in my warehouse, I am going to demand as much information as I possibly can about that murder for a million good reasons.

                        And if I have security I am paying for on duty at the time of the the murder I am going to expect them to gather as much information as possible. After all I could be the one charged with criminal negligence, hit with a major law suit by surviving family members etc. and I will want to be armed with as much info. as I possibly can be in that event.

                        We are not being paid to be the police's little helpers, to make ourselves small and ignorant during an event of major consequence to the customer, we are paid to collect and document as much info as possible.

                        BTW I am playing devils advocate to an extent to see how people answer what I feel are basically solid criticisms of common S/O attitudes and reactions.
                        formerly C&A

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          cocknaces wins, and this is why the police won't share information with security. Individual officers might, but quite frankly, there are times that the information security gets from individual officers would land the PO in hot water.

                          I have been given active case information before. I have actually seen first hand what happened to a Deputy Sheriff who gave me information by his Sergeant, past the report number.

                          The Sergeant reminded the deputy that its illegal to give out active case information to a third party. And since I wasn't the victim, a police officer, or a State's Attorney, I was the third party.

                          Many times, when you go to look up a case after getting the case number, you're told "Case is active, I can't give you any info from it."

                          This was even more fun when I was subpoenaed by the SAO for a case I'd never heard of before. I had to speak to a police records supervisor, show him the subpoena in my hand, then he had to call the SAO to verify that I was on the "right side." Only then could he tell me the address of the call simply so I could run a check through my report database and find out wtf it was all about.
                          Some Kind of Commando Leader

                          "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The typical involvement of the SO in a major crime situation typically is limited to the following:

                            1. Alerting authorities and EMS.
                            2. Rendering immediate aid to the victim if possible
                            3. Crime scene protection until relieved by the police.
                            4. Alerting your superiors, client, etc., as required by post orders.
                            5. Documenting how and when you were alerted to the situation, what you did in response, what you saw, arrival of authorities, and anything else that you might personally know about the incident. Documentation typically also includes the identification of the chief investigator and the PD case number.
                            6. Providing additional assistance as requested by the authorities in their investigation. This might involve traffic control, scene protection, unlocking facilities, etc. It might also involve "Please remove yourself from the crime scene".

                            This situation is now in the hands of the police, and they have very little time to get after the suspect. Security documentation, in the sense of providing you with information other than as noted above, comes very far down on their immediate list of priorities!

                            You can write up a preliminary report covering the items noted above for the time being, and any additional information can be added to this by way of a supplemental report well after the initial urgency of the police investigation has passed. There is very rarely any urgent need for security to have this information immediately, including the identity of the victim.

                            Mention was made above of insurance investigations. Well, yes, but the insurance investigator isn't typically up in the face of the police while they're still trying to sort out what happened. He usually comes in well after the first urgent phases of the police investigation are finished.

                            There is absolutely no need for us to be butting heads with the police on this kind of thing. And remember, the government (meaning the police) DOES have very tight privacy strictures regarding what information it can give out, and to whom, and under what circumstances. There have been far too many cases of inappropriate or inaccurate information being given out, and the police these days simply aren't going to risk that. They have very detailed policies regarding the release of information and they won't violate them. If you were in their position, you'd do exactly the same thing, so get over it. It has nothing to do with "bad security-police relationships".

                            ALMOST ALL INFORMATION EXCHANGE IN THE IMMEDIATE INITIAL PHASES OF A POLICE INVESTIGATION WILL BE ONE-WAY...YOU (AND OTHER WITNESSES, ETC.) TELLING THE POLICE WHAT YOU KNOW so they can launch their investigation. This is EXACTLY how it should be, and this is EXACTLY how we cooperate with the police...not by whining that they're not spilling their guts to US. The police aren't a news agency. Dig it and get hip, cats.

                            After the dust settles, there is plenty of time for you or your superior to go to the police department, contact the investigative bureau, establish a proper "need to know" and get all the information that is relevant for your needs, and that can be released. File this in a supplemental report to your initial report, and you're good to go. Even if you think there might be something you wish they'd release and won't, you've done what you can do, and that's the end of it.
                            Last edited by SecTrainer; 11-14-2007, 06:28 PM.
                            "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                            "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                            "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                            "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

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                            • #15
                              The report sounds fine. Nathan is right, there is a ongoing investigation and it will be extremely difficult, if not nearly impossible to get specifics on the matter. I think it looks good.

                              Be Safe,

                              HAnk
                              " We are determined that before the sun sets on this terrible struggle, our flag will be recognized throughout the world as a symbol of freedom on one hand and of overwhelming force on the other" - General George C. Marshall

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