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  • #46
    Originally posted by MSPofficer View Post
    What county in Minnesota would that be? I know of a security company in Minneapolis that bid $21.95 per hour for a armed position at an apartment complex. I was disgusted at low they bid to get that work. Companies like that are pythetic.

    We should all bid what we are worth.

    Good day and God Bless
    MSPOfficer
    Scott County.
    Some Kind of Commando Leader

    "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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    • #47
      Originally posted by dougo83 View Post
      That was the first link I pulled on DSkin, I will pull more if necessary, but none of them looked very promising. They all seemed, from the summaries, to show that DSkin armor isn't so great...
      Well I'm sure the US Military will recruit millions Chinese spammers if required, but it is a well known fact exploited even on 60 minutes. US Army had sharpshooters target border interfaces where armor coverage was not present on the dragon skin. The difference is between III and IIIA armor certification, or rifle and pistol protection. Go to Dragon skin site and they will SHOW you videos of hundreds of rounds of ak-47's, etc... delivered into their body armor. Never seen that done by any other armor company.

      Being an US Army Veteran, I realize the Army is the propoganda king of all the US services. Its a way of life, its not just a job. Your link was a military assessment. And yes for interlocked rifle protection, they are 20 lbs heavier. No sweat, better yet. Don't mind the workout.

      I'm confident of what is required for adequate protection in today's 'battle of firearms' on the streets. I prefer to wear what the Generals and Senators wear. 60 minutes documeted that EVERY swinging General and Senator wore Dragon Skin armor in Iraq. The Army will NOT let Soldiers use dragon skin even if they buy their own (for their own life!). BS propoganda kings.

      If you wear body armor, I'd look more closely than articles put out by the US Army. Its your life. Its your responsibility to compare the products in your hand if that is what it takes.

      But I will be happy to view anything you can drag up on dragon skins. Side by side, its the very best there is. And shame on you Supervisors who are gang humping on the Army's propoganda trail to save a few dollars. At least tell the SO's the truth so they can make an informed decision.


      God Bless, and Be Safe!

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      • #48
        That was before the NIJ decertified Dragonskin. I would rather wear what is NIJ certified than what some general is wearing, simply because the general is in a different environment.
        Some Kind of Commando Leader

        "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
          That was before the NIJ decertified Dragonskin. I would rather wear what is NIJ certified than what some general is wearing, simply because the general is in a different environment.
          OK, I'll bite. Pray tell what holy water body armor does NIJ wears. One moment, street fire power is getting stronger and stronger with automatic rifles when talking about armed guards, and the next minute street and military are two mutually exclusive environments when talking about footing the $3K+ bill for Dragon Skins.

          And the Army's not the only one with expert sharpshooter resources. They are just the unscrupulous first ones to start the propoganda in the first place. Other law agencies don't want to buy dragon skins either (like every supervisor on this site, since have not heard ONE admit to a well know fact that Dragon skins are the superior life saving alternative). Notice an alternative to Dragon skins is never given, other than maybe the US Army alternative. That is because all others are clearly deficient compared to dragon skins: especially the US Army's alternative.

          Unlike the armed guard debate which does have two sides, this is a pretty closed one way debate on dragon skins. The facts don't lie. Look on their site for actual videos of what their body armor does. There is no way they could charge that much if it didn't do the job. There is NO alternative: no safe one anyway.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by ddog View Post
            OK, I'll bite. Pray tell what holy water body armor does NIJ wears.
            NIJ doesn't wear body armor, it certifies it, tells you if and at what level it protects you. NIJ says its not good...well that's good enough for me.

            And you keep saying that "every" Army General and Senator in Iraq is wearing it, while I'm sure there may be a couple but in all my time over there I never once saw anyone wearing it. But hey who knows I'm sure you know them all.
            SecurityProfessional is Back up and running!

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            • #51
              ddog: Do you work for or have money invested in Dragon Skin?

              Since when is 60 Minutes the final word in the truth?

              You say we should watch Dragon Skin's videos on their website. How is that any different than the "Propaganda" (your word not mine) put out by the Army?

              Personnally, I think Dragon Skin and the Army's issue armor are both to heavy and inflexable for me to be able to my non gun fighting duties effectively. In twelve years as an armed S/O, I have pulled my gun twice, started to pull it a third time, until I realized that the subject had a finger instead of a gun. I have never fured a gun in the line of duty, nor have I ever been fired upon. The typical level II or IIIA vest will handle most threats that S/O's face while not impeding their ablility to perform the majority of their duties. I, and most of us here, do not work in a full fledged combat zone.
              "Gun control, the theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists. " Author Unknown

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              • #52
                Originally posted by gcmc security part 2 View Post
                NIJ doesn't wear body armor, it certifies it, tells you if and at what level it protects you. NIJ says its not good...well that's good enough for me.

                And you keep saying that "every" Army General and Senator in Iraq is wearing it, while I'm sure there may be a couple but in all my time over there I never once saw anyone wearing it. But hey who knows I'm sure you know them all.
                Well the NIJ certified it through ballistic tests before (STRONG scientific test), which is more proof than saying the vendor did not prove its results absolutely from actual time period tests (WEAK political test - NIJ is brother of US Army). Its been 100% protection so far. And the aging tests cannot absolutely guarantee actual time tests under ridiculous care habits. So the armor is still IMPLIED to be the best because NIJ says to keep wearing DRAGON SKIN SPECIFICALLY, but it pulled the certification based on a guarantee glich, THAT NIJ approved initially (???).

                Likewise, I was taking 60 minutes SAMPLING of 100% of Generals and Senators to be a significant and representative sample. 95% would be enough to convince me. 65% would be cause for concern. Statistically, like Dragon Skins aging tests, it is a highly probable CONFIDENT assessment. And like the weak test for renigging on the certification they granted earlier, your logic of 'maybe not 100% Generals and Senators' has not been proven to wear Dragon skin (WEAK counterpoint) does not change the basis of significantly confident proven ideas and concepts.

                Originally posted by Andy Taylor View Post
                ddog: Do you work for or have money invested in Dragon Skin?

                Since when is 60 Minutes the final word in the truth?

                You say we should watch Dragon Skin's videos on their website. How is that any different than the "Propaganda" (your word not mine) put out by the Army?

                Personnally, I think Dragon Skin and the Army's issue armor are both to heavy and inflexable for me to be able to my non gun fighting duties effectively. In twelve years as an armed S/O, I have pulled my gun twice, started to pull it a third time, until I realized that the subject had a finger instead of a gun. I have never fured a gun in the line of duty, nor have I ever been fired upon. The typical level II or IIIA vest will handle most threats that S/O's face while not impeding their ablility to perform the majority of their duties. I, and most of us here, do not work in a full fledged combat zone.
                No, but I'd like a Dragon skin though if you are throwing any away due to NIJ decertification. I'm between XL and 2XL to give you a couple of alternatives if so.

                Seeing weapons fire a hundred rounds and inspecting armor is about as opposite to propoganda as I could think of. If seeing is believing, due to the stratified range of large signficant sample sizes, this is as close to visual proof without being there during the tests.

                Yeah, dragon skin probably costs double its worth with patents and being first to the market. Same thing with Rambus PC memory. Manufacturers just sell inferior products since Feb 2002 pc products (!), and slowly pick up patents year by year. Industry only cares about EASY profit: not user benefit, nor even user safety.

                And some have argued the streets 'are' a battle zone. Just one bullet from a well aimed $359 AK-47 is all the military zone time you need to consider: a fraction of a second. Its a probability game. 30 years of bullet free duty does not prove a whole lot, given too many variables to compare in a controlled experiment. Its your life. I care, but not much more than telling you once and letting you decide on your own.

                This seems to be the best representative link I found out of 20 from a LE group (whose tails are more at risk on the average than SO's, and maybe even GI's due to constant risks while not constantly battle ready).

                http://www.policemag.com/News/2007/0...ty-Claims.aspx
                Last edited by ddog; 11-08-2007, 02:19 PM.

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                • #53
                  I prefer whatever pays the most. Here, that means being armed.

                  If you look at security as a career and look at that career as a ladder, armed security is a rung up from unarmed. None of the $15+/hr jobs are unarmed. Not that I've seen anyways. And the $20+ jobs, the certification is absolutely necessary. The best security job I've ever had a crack at paid 200k a year, 28 days on, 28 off, international off-shore oil rigs. Armed only. I can't imagine an unarmed job ever paying even close to that. The wife said no btw.

                  edit: after reading through some of the other posts I want to add a couple things. Considering the "career" importance of being armed, the higher long term wages (etc) the costs associated with it are insignificant.

                  I would be interested in seeing the actual study that shows armed security to be more dangerous than unarmed security. Or for that matter, the study that says armed security is more dangerous that unarmed driving your car across town.
                  Last edited by junkyarddog; 11-08-2007, 02:30 PM.
                  formerly C&A

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                  • #54
                    I would rather be armed, than unarmed. Irregardless of what you may think, by putting on a security uniform you present yourself as an authoritive figure capable of enforcing rules, regulations, and laws. Basically, a big target indicator.

                    Some people may settle for being a warm body in a seat, but I personally prefer to be proactive and capable of defending myself in the line of duty.

                    With that, I'm retrofitting my armor I had in the military for use on patrol. The threat level I deal with is small in terms of most people, but the majority of firearms I will encounter are going to be rifle, so the Level IV plate gets to stay.

                    YMMV, FWIW.
                    Overmotivated and Underpaid... I'm a Security supervisors wet dream...

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by cocknaces View Post
                      I prefer whatever pays the most. Here, that means being armed.

                      If you look at security as a career and look at that career as a ladder, armed security is a rung up from unarmed. None of the $15+/hr jobs are unarmed. Not that I've seen anyways. And the $20+ jobs, the certification is absolutely necessary. The best security job I've ever had a crack at paid 200k a year, 28 days on, 28 off, international off-shore oil rigs. Armed only. I can't imagine an unarmed job ever paying even close to that. The wife said no btw.

                      edit: after reading through some of the other posts I want to add a couple things. Considering the "career" importance of being armed, the higher long term wages (etc) the costs associated with it are insignificant.

                      I would be interested in seeing the actual study that shows armed security to be more dangerous than unarmed security. Or for that matter, the study that says armed security is more dangerous that unarmed driving your car across town.
                      All valid points with career SO positions. Having over 20 engineering statistical courses, a word of caution: studies are a good way to lie since few understand statistics and make the results say what they want. Cost is a factor in seting up an empirical test design which factors out different types of error.

                      The only comparison factors I feel, are:
                      - a sidearm would have to be a target for theft, may raise the chance of injury,
                      - drawing, reacting to draw your pistol, or just strongly twitching with a sidearm on youp person may raise the chance of injury, and
                      - comparing to driving alone would be too variable to contain in any meaningful results.

                      But I'll give you this, drinking alcohol and smoking cigarettes is likely more dangerous than armed SO's jobs on the average; and only likely to be topped in deaths due to USA putting milk bi-products and corn-syrup (sugar) in almost every food we eat.

                      I just look at all the LE who QUIT (NOT retire) to become UNARMED SO's: TOP OF FIELD LE Officers too. It in itself indicates nothing, but all grouped together is cause for concern. Its hard to prove anything historically, except 100% results under given constraints. And then there's so many variables that can be manipulated and throw the results in reverse.

                      And although your armed career stats are valid in your lifetime; compare cost/benefit of the 'here and now' in the age of illegal alien labor. They can get the id's to become ICE agents as easily as they can get drivers licenses, cross the border, and/or get SS cards. Don't think the SO, or even the Medical field, will not eventually be devistated like every other occupation field in USA. So assuming this inevitable cleansing of the SO pay rates, just how long do you think this armed premium will last? Long enough to pay for classes, weapons, and permits at least

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by cocknaces View Post
                        I prefer whatever pays the most. Here, that means being armed.

                        If you look at security as a career and look at that career as a ladder, armed security is a rung up from unarmed. None of the $15+/hr jobs are unarmed. Not that I've seen anyways. And the $20+ jobs, the certification is absolutely necessary. The best security job I've ever had a crack at paid 200k a year, 28 days on, 28 off, international off-shore oil rigs. Armed only. I can't imagine an unarmed job ever paying even close to that. The wife said no btw.

                        edit: after reading through some of the other posts I want to add a couple things. Considering the "career" importance of being armed, the higher long term wages (etc) the costs associated with it are insignificant.

                        I would be interested in seeing the actual study that shows armed security to be more dangerous than unarmed security. Or for that matter, the study that says armed security is more dangerous that unarmed driving your car across town.
                        I make between 15.00/hr and 15.75 unarmed, completely slick belt. No OC no batons, no cuffs, no nothing. I actually make more than a good amount of armed posts out here. There are only a handful of armed security out there that makes more than me, and most of them are GSA.

                        When I was with Wackenhut, I was on Global Response Team as an Unarmed S/O as well. There was a lot of potential for big bucks. On one call-out I brought home approx. $10,000 for about a month's duty. I could have stayed out much longer, but opted out.

                        So there is certainly opportunities out there for unarmed S/Os, there may not be as many as there are for armed, but they are certainly there.

                        Edit to add:

                        I also get much better benefits than most S/Os who are armed out this way. I get...

                        (Insurance)
                        - 100% Medical Insurance Coverage
                        - 80% Dental Insurance Coverage

                        (Per Year basis)
                        - 120hrs paid vacation
                        - 96hrs paid sick leave
                        - 10 paid holidays
                        - 1 paid personal holiday
                        - $250 Education allowance

                        There are few, if any, armed security officers in Washington that can boast the same benefits. They are one of the reasons I don't leave for one of the $20+/hr GSA contracts.
                        Last edited by Lawson; 11-08-2007, 03:26 PM.
                        "Alright guys listen up, ya'll have probably heard this before, Jackson vs. Securiplex corporation; I am a private security officer, I have no State or governmental authority. I stand as an ordinary citizen. I have no right to; detain, interrogate or otherwise interfere with your personal property-... basically all that means is I'm a cop."-Officer Ernie
                        "The Curve" 1998

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                        • #57
                          I be;eve that all of this industry should be armed. Why? If I am some person who wishes to violate the law in some way, I might take a chance with a security officer who I know is unarmed, but I would be very reluctant to oerform my act where I know security is armed. I think that being armed has a huge psycological affect on potential offenders. The ultimate goal here is to never need to draw the weapon, of course this goal might not be met, but it is much prefered over becoming a target.
                          Murphy was an optomist.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by dougo83 View Post
                            I used to think the same thing until I had a pistol stuck in my face. They get your attention pretty quick...
                            I've had a cop here do the same (I swear we have some of the most unethical guys in Australia working on the Sunshine Coast) and it didn't bother me at all. A gun is final and a VERY high level of force to be justified.

                            If the person is carrying no weapon and you shoot them because they take a swing at you I think you'd have trouble justifying your actions in Australia. Gun vs Fist isn't really equal force. However, releasing a dog would be more easily justified - I assume it is anyway as the security that did our place released his dog on a few guys and never got into strife for it - shooting them, who knows.

                            It's for that reason that I fear someone wielding (lol) a dog than a gun.

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                            • #59
                              I've had a cop here do the same (I swear we have some of the most unethical guys in Australia working on the Sunshine Coast) and it didn't bother me at all.
                              Riight...some moron rookie stuck a loaded piece in your face and you just smiled and laughed. Oooook Rambo...

                              A gun is final and a VERY high level of force to be justified.
                              Very true. Exactly why I don't appreciate staring down the barrel very much. I have had weapons pulled on me multiple times in the course of a delinquent youth and at work.

                              If the person is carrying no weapon and you shoot them because they take a swing at you I think you'd have trouble justifying your actions in Australia.
                              \

                              This is the same just about anywhere.

                              Gun vs Fist isn't really equal force.
                              This is not the subject of the debate at hand. This is common knowledge in this industry.

                              However, releasing a dog would be more easily justified
                              Ok, I punch you...you release dog...I have to get multiple stitches and staples while you have a bruise. Good luck not getting sued. Here in the States, you may criminally legit, but you would be civilly screwed.


                              It's for that reason that I fear someone wielding (lol) a dog than a gun.
                              Make no mistake. I fear no man. I do, however, question the ability of a gun-wielding idiot not to shoot me. Therefore, I pack on and off duty. I think of my weapon as not only a tool, but as a great equalizer. Just like anything else on my belt, It will be used when necessary. Besides, no dog is a match for my pistol anyway.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by ddog View Post
                                All valid points with career SO positions. Having over 20 engineering statistical courses, a word of caution: studies are a good way to lie since few understand statistics and make the results say what they want. Cost is a factor in seting up an empirical test design which factors out different types of error.

                                The only comparison factors I feel, are:
                                - a sidearm would have to be a target for theft, may raise the chance of injury,
                                - drawing, reacting to draw your pistol, or just strongly twitching with a sidearm on youp person may raise the chance of injury, and
                                - comparing to driving alone would be too variable to contain in any meaningful results.

                                But I'll give you this, drinking alcohol and smoking cigarettes is likely more dangerous than armed SO's jobs on the average; and only likely to be topped in deaths due to USA putting milk bi-products and corn-syrup (sugar) in almost every food we eat.

                                I just look at all the LE who QUIT (NOT retire) to become UNARMED SO's: TOP OF FIELD LE Officers too. It in itself indicates nothing, but all grouped together is cause for concern. Its hard to prove anything historically, except 100% results under given constraints. And then there's so many variables that can be manipulated and throw the results in reverse.
                                Beyond hard numbers all you have is hearsay and opinion. X amount of people die or suffer disabling injuries in job 1, y amount of people die or suffer disabling injuries in job 2. Those are all the facts you need.


                                And although your armed career stats are valid in your lifetime; compare cost/benefit of the 'here and now' in the age of illegal alien labor. They can get the id's to become ICE agents as easily as they can get drivers licenses, cross the border, and/or get SS cards. Don't think the SO, or even the Medical field, will not eventually be devistated like every other occupation field in USA. So assuming this inevitable cleansing of the SO pay rates, just how long do you think this armed premium will last? Long enough to pay for classes, weapons, and permits at least
                                If we are going into the truly speculative area of how the future will be affected by illegal immigration, we might as well state the obvious: The few rich people will be very rich and will in fact employ security to protect them from the poor. They will not be likely to have as their security, the same demographic they are oppressing. In other words, you don't have poor people protecting you from poor people. You have middle class people protecting you from poor people.

                                There is currently a security bonanza going on around the world right now, precisely because as civilization goes down the toilet, the rich and powerful pay armed men to protect their interests. That is why security in the third world pays big bucks, while most other occupations pay little at all. It is just the historical formula. When things are REALLY bad you have two groups of people that do ok, those with wealth and those paid to protect that wealth.

                                A bit extreme of an example, but historically armed security pays little in areas/periods of time, of relative stability and prosperity, and allot in times/areas of instability and general poverty.

                                Following your example of MD wages and private security wages, in places like Iraq, Afghanistan, Kosovo and some other places, private security makes a good bit more than the MD.

                                So, as things get worse here, expect armed security pay to only get better.
                                formerly C&A

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