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Evacuate or Protect-In-Place?

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  • NRM_Oz
    replied
    They have to be realistic and not the time for people to walk next door and get a coffee to take to the evac point with them. In a SHTF scenario people do panic and if it is only through reputition, training, practice and knowledge that this panic can be reduced. Working in Tokyo once we had an earthquake and without fear the co-workers had me standing in a door way as little Ninjas ran around us to get us to evacuate the building. No panic and the voice over was a woman's voice in Japanese and English kindly advising us to leave the building immediately. I felt like changing the old undies after this happened as it was a shock to me to experience my 2nd earthquake in my life.

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  • Bill Warnock
    replied
    As SecTrainer and others have pointed out, these drills or exercises taken seriously, will save many lives. Every person from the janitor to the CEO have a stake in these exercises. If the CEO gives lip service to these exercises and does actively participate, guess what the employees will do?
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill

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  • SecTrainer
    replied
    Originally posted by NRM_Oz View Post
    Most emergency wardens in Australia attend a BS 2 hour training session on where exits are, marshalling, evac points, bomb threats, etc. It means nothing when you have a 19 year old teen-queen (remember softly spoken Hooks from Police Academy ?) wearing a Village Person hard hat and losing control of the crown through mass panic.

    Again it has to be realistic and to for Em. Wardens to deal with crowd issues to direct others out of the way or to move people from 1 part of a building to another. Best idea I know of was Task Cards which were handed to all 4 Em Wardens as the floor Warden controlled the floor - each card had them complete tasks (ie. check toilets) and then deliver them to a communications point on exiting the building. But as the old saying goes - PRACTICE - PRACTICE - PRACTICE and then PRACTICE some more.
    I like the idea of floor/dept wardens for fire, disaster, hazmat incidents, but not for bomb threats, terrorist or other active shooters.

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  • NRM_Oz
    replied
    When I have conducted security or awareness training, I try to make it as real as possible. It is no use talking about Armed Holdups if we talk in a soft voice and read from a book. I do warn others I am going to make this sound real and I will role play as I suddenly raise my voice with shouting out "give me the money - now, hurry up, do it now, you - open that door". It is not meant to scare people (replacement underwear is available) but to ensure that it is as real as possible (I really hope it never happens to anyone) so that if sadly it did happen it would help others understand what MAY happen.

    Most emergency wardens in Australia attend a BS 2 hour training session on where exits are, marshalling, evac points, bomb threats, etc. It means nothing when you have a 19 year old teen-queen (remember softly spoken Hooks from Police Academy ?) wearing a Village Person hard hat and losing control of the crown through mass panic.

    Again it has to be realistic and to for Em. Wardens to deal with crowd issues to direct others out of the way or to move people from 1 part of a building to another. Best idea I know of was Task Cards which were handed to all 4 Em Wardens as the floor Warden controlled the floor - each card had them complete tasks (ie. check toilets) and then deliver them to a communications point on exiting the building. But as the old saying goes - PRACTICE - PRACTICE - PRACTICE and then PRACTICE some more.

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  • HotelSecurity
    replied
    Originally posted by ACP01 View Post
    Of course any type of fire alarm or other such incident you mayevacuate again depending on type and size of building. Say you have an electrical room fire on one end of a L shaped building, would you really need to evacuate the othe end?
    Rule of thumb is you evacuate the floor where the fire is located & the floor above in case of a fire. So I WOULD evacuate the other end of an L shaped building.

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  • LeadSecurityOfficer
    replied
    Reply to ACP01

    ACP01:


    Our Security Officers are not armed. We work for a corporation that feels they pay taxes for the police to take the responsibility for training, staffing, liability, etc. so they don't have to. Our responsibility lies in the first few minutes before the police show up and take command.

    Our SOGs will have to provide guidance to our officers on what to look for in deciding on a particular tactic. One cannot just pull the fire alarm and let everyone leave where they may. One cannot just tell people to leave the building and let them choose their path out. One cannot just tell everyone to go back to their office and close the door. There are many forms of violence to be considered. Building, business type, weather, population demographics all play a part in the decision.

    I am just looking for input as to what conditions would make one choose either Evacuate or PIP. I know we haven't thought of everything.

    Thanks, SecTrainer. Good input.
    Last edited by LeadSecurityOfficer; 10-30-2007, 04:19 PM.

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  • Hank1
    replied
    Indeed Eric. As Sec noted earlier, there are many variables. I'd say plan and train for all senarios, as best you can and resourses allow! Best of luck!

    Be Safe,

    Hank

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  • Eric
    replied
    This could be a timely debate as we watch CNN coverage of the San Diego fires.

    Life safety, yours and others, is the main concern.

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  • SecTrainer
    replied
    It's very difficult to offer generalizations. Everything else being equal, evacuation would usually be the best choice. Unfortunately, there are lots of things - some having to do with the characteristics of your population (younger/older, etc.), some having to do with the physical characteristics of the facility (how many floors, exits, layout, access control systems, locks on lab/office doors, type of materials used in construction, executive office suite, etc.), some having to do with the specifics of the incident (one shooter or more, "reason" or purpose of the attack, knowledgeable about the facility or not, etc.), and some having to do with the skills and size of the on-site response force - that would dictate otherwise.

    This is such a grave issue, and there is so much at stake (the loss of one key employee in many science/research organizations can literally cripple the whole operation), that it really deserves to be kicked outside the organization to a personnel protection specialist for expert evaluation. If a client came to me with this issue, I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole because I think it really requires someone who truly specializes in this area.
    Last edited by SecTrainer; 10-26-2007, 02:29 AM.

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  • ronnieb
    replied
    I have worked on creating policy for a static hostage situation and an active shooter situation. Unfortunately the resources available for the active shooter scenario create a bleak picture unless you have armed personnel to tackle them. Google active shooter policies for universities and you'll get the idea. To gain a little insight I started here:
    http://www.policeone.com/active-shoo...ticles/1349058

    http://patc.com/weeklyarticles/active-shooter5ph.shtml

    There's alot of information available elsewhere as well. In fact alot of the information already given is invaluable if you are trying to create a policy from scratch. Remember the term "Best Practices".

    Good luck and if you can post your findings.

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  • ACP01
    replied
    Lead Security...I have a couple questions first....

    Is your department armed? I ask because this would dictate some of your guidelines.

    After Columbine the procedure (LEOs) if an Active Shooter is to engage the shooter(s) in an attempt to locate, fix them, and attempt to neutralize the threat thus giving others a chance to escape. You would also be directing anyone you find to evacuate as you went.
    This goes for most forms of workplace violence.

    Of course any type of fire alarm or other such incident you mayevacuate again depending on type and size of building. Say you have an electrical room fire on one end of a L shaped building, would you really need to evacuate the othe end?

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  • Bill Warnock
    replied
    Originally posted by kingsman View Post
    I always run scenarios thru my mind since there is no written procedure for this in the government buildings I work at.
    Kingsman, if that building is federally owned or operated, what is the jurisdiction, Federal Exclusive, partial Federal Exclusive, Concurrent or Proprietary? Federal Property Management Regulation (FPMR) requires there be a current and up-to-date Occupant Emergency Plan (OEP) and there must be a "Designated Official," normally the highest-ranking official of the primary occupant agency. Jurisdiction? I don't care if it is an outhouse and it is run by or for the federal government the 18 USC Section 13, "Laws of States adopted for areas within Federal Jurisdiction" applies. Someone within the security office is required to have a cadre of security police/guards trained in the issuance of magistrate judge summons.
    Since 9/11 there must be in place a core of plans dealing with any emergency and GSA is required to inspect them. If GSA gives you a spot of bother, please let me know. I think there will be fun with this one.
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill

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  • kingsman
    replied
    I always run scenarios thru my mind since there is no written procedure for this in the government buildings I work at.

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  • Bill Warnock
    replied
    All I can answer to that is, "BRAVO -- BRAVO!"
    Bill

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  • NRM_Oz
    replied
    When I worked as Dir. Security with an IT company, we had a safe room for execs off my office which was secured and accessed by exec team only. You cannot predict what is going to happen in all scenarios but let me just toss a few around:

    1. Disgruntled employee goes postal - move those who can away from the danger (ie. out of the building or out of harm).

    2. Group attack - you need to have isolated or `safe areas` where people can move to (like using a bathroom as a shelter).

    3. Other scenarios - people panic in a crisis and then you get some idiot who sticks his head up like a meerkat and BLAM ........ trouble hits.

    What gets me and I have pounded my head against the wall for years - when you have Emergency Wardens who order Execs or management to move and the Execs pull rank on them. This happens far too often and it should never be that way - when you are ordered to move - you move !!

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