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  • junkyarddog
    replied
    Originally posted by BadBoynMD View Post
    Wait a minute... slow down toughie (my word, well barrrowed word)... I need to take this all in as well.

    Let me get this straight... Not only are you conducting traffic off property, but you're blocking in vehicles? and approaching in a NON-threatening way? How in the H-E-double hockey sticks can you chase (yes, chase) a vehicle, block it in and then approach in a non-threatening way???? All I gotta say is, let you do that to me, i'll be owning a second company.
    If I block you in- before you pull off- and you have half a ton of material stolen from our site in the bed of your pickup, AND I have digital photos of you coming out of the fence, your vehicle, your plate #, AND I have CCTV video of you committing the crime, I doubt very much you'll owning 'the second company'.

    When did I say we chase anyone? I said we DON'T chase anyone. Also, your getting this mixed up. We don't follow someone and then block them, we try to block them before they take off. If someone is on a drive that leads ONLY to one of our sites, yes I am going to block them in. If someone is pulled against our fenceline and is outside their vehicle, tampering with the fence, yes I am going to obstruct their vehicle with mine.

    I don't get how you guys think this is extreme. The reason why we never have a legal problem with this is because we exercise excellent judgment in making any contact with anyone at all. If someone is putting a sign for a pizza store on the fence, I am going to pull up and tell them to stop it, to call our customer for permission, and if I see a pizza sign up without permission I am going to take it off and throw it away. If I see someone tampering with the fence (cutting a hole in it with bolt cutters, trying to climb it, trying to pull something from the other side through it) I am going to be snapping off pictures as I pull up, will try to obstruct the vehicle, and will call the police.

    It is shocking to me, because the police NEVER have a problem with this. Just last week, on a public road immediately outside the employee gate of one of our sites, I stopped someone and it worked out great. The gate was open (was later found to be forced) a car came roaring out, smashed against the high curb (busting the tire and the rim) and limped down the street in front of me. On went my lights, I followed the vehicle, snapped a few shots of vehicle and plate, called the police with the plate # and description, the car stopped about a quarter of a mile later, and three people opened the doors and ran up a nearby hillside. I called dispatch and had them run the plate through the corporate directory, got the cell associated with the vehicle and called the owner. The police arrived about 7 minutes after the vehicle had stopped. I was still sitting behind it with my stupid blue lights on. I dealt with the police, and when it was all said and done, they thanked me. It is rare that employees of our customers will have their car stolen from the actual site its self, but this is just an example. We deal with law enforcement all the time, never with a problem.

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  • junkyarddog
    replied
    Originally posted by ValleyOne View Post
    I need a minute to take this all in...

    Consider yourself lucky...
    Did I mention that we absolutely won't do any off-property stops unless we are on good terms with the PD whos jurisdiction we are in? There are allot of variables, and my last post was already long. PD's we are on good terms with are happy we make these stops as they often lead to arrests for the police who respond. Some of our sites are hotspots for theft and tend to attract people who commit more crimes than simply trying to steal from us. The police are given keys to these areas and we run into them on these properties at least once a day. They sit and wait for the criminals to come to them. And they do. As agents of our customer, we do not have to give the police access to these sites and they know that. So it is a give and take. They get to hide on property and wait for the bust to come to them and we get to stop people if we have reason to believe they were on our site, so long as the stop is in the immediate vicinity of the site its self. None of us are gung-ho about stopping people off property and some of us won't do it.


    Mmm, every 30 minutes you have to call in, interesting as a local company here does that as well. I doubt it's a growing trend, as they are to busytrying sound cool on the radio, and rather annoying to listen to. But, hey, I can't afford XM Radio and the comedy channel so I got this company's freq in my scanner, it makes for some funny radio chatter.
    That is not us.

    So your shifting your response to this thread from traffic stop to contact. They are two totally different actions, right? On one hand you are not allowing a person to leave, Traffic stop. On the other you are merely engaging them in due social intercourse, ie a conversation. Learn the difference, as you cannot just pull someone over to have a conversation with them...

    Ok head back into the office of the person that 'trained' you on these tactics and demand that they show you where you stand legally. Also, ask them if the company lawyer will be present to represent you when (not if) you get sued.

    Once you turn the cool flashing lights on and someone actually pulls over because they think a POLICE OFFICER is pulling them over on a public road, off property-your words here. You have unlawfully detained them as well as, possibly given them the false impression that you are a police officer. Now, some states allow you to stop persons ON your property to determine if they, for lack of better term, 'belong' there. But, doing this on dang near any public road off property is the fastest way for you to loose you licsense, and your boss to loose his company.
    In my state, only the police may have red and blue light bars (ours are blue only), and the huge "SECURITY" sign on the side of our vehicles and uniforms covered in the word "security" are plenty to let people know we are not police.

    To be specific, the first thing we tell someone after stopping them with the lights on, off property, is that we are not police. Sometimes after making the stop and getting the visual information, the conversation is as short as, "You were on property that is clearly posted 'No Trespassing', please don't trespass that property again. Goodnight."

    Lights off contact on or off property is more friendly as I described in the other post. It all depends on what is going on. Someone just sitting in their car in a one lane drive leading to the gate of a site means we pull in front of them and approach in a friendly manner with the lights off. Someone who cut the lock of the gate, has their pickup truck on the actual property, and jumps in and starts to pull out when we arrive is something else.

    What color lights do you guys run?
    blue

    WTH, do you tell people when you pull them over on a public street? "Good evening, I am Officer X with STS Patrol and I noticed you ........ Can we talk about that for a minute? If not, how's your day going?"
    It all depends on what they were doing. I gave some examples above. Something else you should know is that the sites we hit are fairly isolated industrial or rural areas. The public roads we make stops on are not like city streets with houses and walk-in businesses. They are country back roads or
    roads connecting nothing but heavy industrial and warehousing complexes. They are rarely used by anyone who is not associated with either the property its self or one of mills, warehouses (etc). The police know this and make a habit of stopping (without lights) anyone who does not look like they belong in these areas.

    If you paid any attention to that video you would have noticed that the state trooper didnt even have a chance to tell anyone that he was in a fight...for his life.
    The trooper also made the guy get out of the car, was grabbing on him, giving him orders etc. We do NOTHING like that. If someone starts getting out of their car, we get right back into ours. If we even get out of the car. Most stops, we simply pull up to the window of the car and try to keep the space between vehicles close enough so the person can't simply explode out of the car at us. On property stops are different.

    We aren't looking for an arrest (as that trooper was, as almost every LEO is) we are simply looking for information.

    Leave a comment:


  • BadBoynMD
    replied
    Originally posted by cocknaces View Post
    Its not like we chase people across town. Here is an example: fenceline of a site runs parallel to the road, a few feet off the shoulder. There is a car parked on that shoulder (where there are clear no parking signs). Closing to 100 yards of the car, we notice an individual doing something to the fence near the car. Upon seeing us (25 yards) they get in the car and start pulling away. We make the stop and proceed as I outlined above. If the person hops in the car and guns away we pretty much follow them until we have all of the necessary information (make, model, estimate of year, plate number, number of occupants, description of occupants etc). If possible, we will simply block the vehicle in/get in its way and then approach in a non-threatening way.
    Wait a minute... slow down toughie (my word, well barrrowed word)... I need to take this all in as well.

    Let me get this straight... Not only are you conducting traffic off property, but you're blocking in vehicles? and approaching in a NON-threatening way? How in the H-E-double hockey sticks can you chase (yes, chase) a vehicle, block it in and then approach in a non-threatening way???? All I gotta say is, let you do that to me, i'll be owning a second company.

    Leave a comment:


  • junkyarddog
    replied
    Originally posted by BHR Lawson View Post
    Wait.... you are doing traffic stops off your property? How can you do that and make it seem friendly? When I see lights go on behind me I assume I am not free to leave, no matter how friendly the officer is.
    Its not like we chase people across town. Here is an example: fenceline of a site runs parallel to the road, a few feet off the shoulder. There is a car parked on that shoulder (where there are clear no parking signs). Closing to 100 yards of the car, we notice an individual doing something to the fence near the car. Upon seeing us (25 yards) they get in the car and start pulling away. We make the stop and proceed as I outlined above. If the person hops in the car and guns away we pretty much follow them until we have all of the necessary information (make, model, estimate of year, plate number, number of occupants, description of occupants etc). If possible, we will simply block the vehicle in/get in its way and then approach in a non-threatening way.

    Leave a comment:


  • ValleyOne
    replied
    I need a minute to take this all in...

    Originally posted by cocknaces View Post
    Honestly, I have never seen a single police officer during any stop I've ever made. AFTER they are called is when we see the police. If we don't feel safe making the stop, or the person is evasive and we have good reason, we'll just call the police.
    Consider yourself lucky...

    Yep. Always have to call dispatch before making contact on anything serious (there is a procedure). Dispatch will call the supervisor, the supervisor will call the S/O. Also, guards have to call in every half hour, and mobile patrol units call in upon arrive and departure from every site they hit. Someone doesn't call 30 minutes from their last call, dispatch calls THEM. If they can't be reached, dispatch will call us (the supervisor on duty) and we will have them dispatch the next closest mobile patrol unit to the location, will head to the location ourselves and will make the determination of whether or not to ask for police assistance. It is up to the S/O to contact or not. Often we will get back up before making the contact or just call the police.
    Mmm, every 30 minutes you have to call in, interesting as a local company here does that as well. I doubt it's a growing trend, as they are to busytrying sound cool on the radio, and rather annoying to listen to. But, hey, I can't afford XM Radio and the comedy channel so I got this company's freq in my scanner, it makes for some funny radio chatter.

    So your shifting your response to this thread from traffic stop to contact. They are two totally different actions, right? On one hand you are not allowing a person to leave, Traffic stop. On the other you are merely engaging them in due social intercourse, ie a conversation. Learn the difference, as you cannot just pull someone over to have a conversation with them...


    See above.
    I did...

    We drill that off-property stops are purely "friendly", never giving the impression that someone can't leave if they want. The idea is "occupy" (entertain, ask off-topic questions like directions, small talk etc) while observing and taking as much information in as possible until the police arrive. If the police were not called because no law was broken but their is suspicion of some threat to our customers property or interests, the stop is all about collecting information until either all the information you want is collected or the person decides to leave.

    On property stops- trespassers- are about the same, with the exception that the police are definitely on their way and the person pretty much knows they are f'd when they see you so there is no point is playing stupid. Still no physical restraint, but making it as inconvenient as possible for them to leave before the police get there (ie finding someone on a property where the barbed wire fence was cut, its easy enough to block the hole in the fence with the truck and not help them by opening the locked gate.)
    Ok head back into the office of the person that 'trained' you on these tactics and demand that they show you where you stand legally. Also, ask them if the company lawyer will be present to represent you when (not if) you get sued.

    Once you turn the cool flashing lights on and someone actually pulls over because they think a POLICE OFFICER is pulling them over on a public road, off property-your words here. You have unlawfully detained them as well as, possibly given them the false impression that you are a police officer. Now, some states allow you to stop persons ON your property to determine if they, for lack of better term, 'belong' there. But, doing this on dang near any public road off property is the fastest way for you to loose you licsense, and your boss to loose his company.

    What color lights do you guys run?

    WTH, do you tell people when you pull them over on a public street? "Good evening, I am Officer X with STS Patrol and I noticed you ........ Can we talk about that for a minute? If not, how's your day going?"

    If you paid any attention to that video you would have noticed that the state trooper didnt even have a chance to tell anyone that he was in a fight...for his life.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lawson
    replied
    Wait.... you are doing traffic stops off your property? How can you do that and make it seem friendly? When I see lights go on behind me I assume I am not free to leave, no matter how friendly the officer is.

    Leave a comment:


  • junkyarddog
    replied
    Originally posted by ValleyOne View Post
    No cop has ever seen you guys on a 'Traffic Stop' and stopped and not so much hasked if your ok, let alone what the hell is going on?
    Honestly, I have never seen a single police officer during any stop I've ever made. AFTER they are called is when we see the police. If we don't feel safe making the stop, or the person is evasive and we have good reason, we'll just call the police.

    Do you guys have a dispatch who records the stop location, vehicle, reason for stop-ya know in case it goes sideways on ya?
    Yep. Always have to call dispatch before making contact on anything serious (there is a procedure). Dispatch will call the supervisor, the supervisor will call the S/O. Also, guards have to call in every half hour, and mobile patrol units call in upon arrive and departure from every site they hit. Someone doesn't call 30 minutes from their last call, dispatch calls THEM. If they can't be reached, dispatch will call us (the supervisor on duty) and we will have them dispatch the next closest mobile patrol unit to the location, will head to the location ourselves and will make the determination of whether or not to ask for police assistance. It is up to the S/O to contact or not. Often we will get back up before making the contact or just call the police.

    Aside from legal complications the sole reason I don't agree security doing traffic stops is this. You really never know when it can go sideways on you, and when it does who the hell knows where or who your out with.
    See above.

    Then there's that whole unlawful detention thing as well.
    We drill that off-property stops are purely "friendly", never giving the impression that someone can't leave if they want. The idea is "occupy" (entertain, ask off-topic questions like directions, small talk etc) while observing and taking as much information in as possible until the police arrive. If the police were not called because no law was broken but their is suspicion of some threat to our customers property or interests, the stop is all about collecting information until either all the information you want is collected or the person decides to leave.

    On property stops- trespassers- are about the same, with the exception that the police are definitely on their way and the person pretty much knows they are f'd when they see you so there is no point is playing stupid. Still no physical restraint, but making it as inconvenient as possible for them to leave before the police get there (ie finding someone on a property where the barbed wire fence was cut, its easy enough to block the hole in the fence with the truck and not help them by opening the locked gate.)

    Leave a comment:


  • ValleyOne
    replied
    Originally posted by cocknaces View Post
    We are responsible for nearly 100 separate sites across 3 counties and regularly stop/contact many many people on company property and the area/roads immediately surrounding the property. Never had a problem where the law is concerned.
    No cop has ever seen you guys on a 'Traffic Stop' and stopped and not so much hasked if your ok, let alone what the hell is going on?

    Do you guys have a dispatch who records the stop location, vehicle, reason for stop-ya know in case it goes sideways on ya?

    Aside from legal complications the sole reason I don't agree security doing traffic stops is this. You really never know when it can go sideways on you, and when it does who the hell knows where or who your out with.

    Then there's that whole unlawful detention thing as well.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lawson
    replied
    That's cute. I want one



    Out here we have a funny sign. There is a stretch of road leaving the city going into the county. The SL is 50mph, but people always slow down to about 35-40 for no apparent reason (its a PITA when Im trying to do 65-70 )

    Our limit signs usually read like this



    There is a guy who owns highway-side property who has put up his own street sign that looks just like that but it reads...

    "It's Still
    50
    Giddy' up!"

    Leave a comment:


  • Curtis Baillie
    replied
    Originally posted by BHR Lawson View Post
    Just wondering... why the oddball speed limit? Why not 15 or 10?

    I remember going to a Casino once where the speed limits were 21, I always thought that to be really weird.
    At a NASA installation the is a sign near a rocket motor testing site that reads 'Speed Limit - 186,000 miles per second' - then in larger print on the bottom of the sign it says 'Not Really'.

    Leave a comment:


  • junkyarddog
    replied
    We are responsible for nearly 100 separate sites across 3 counties and regularly stop/contact many many people on company property and the area/roads immediately surrounding the property. Never had a problem where the law is concerned.

    Leave a comment:


  • locknid
    replied
    in AZ security can do anything a private citizen can do. This includes approaching people to find what their business is, asking whatever questions you may want, and being an ass if you want (don't recommend that one though). Also most security are contracted by the management as an agent of management. This allows the security to speak or take actions on behalf of the management such as trespassing someone from property and so on.

    I work apt complexes and we do what is called residency verifications. Basically contacting people walking around property, breaking community policies, etc to make sure they live there or are visiting a resident. they have no obligation to comply but most people are stupid and most people don't want to get trespassed from the property if they are visiting. we usually ask for id, apt living in or visitng, if visiting ask what the resident's name is, and if need be escorting residents/guests to the apt to verify for sure. depending on the reason for contact, time, resident/non-resident status, or if anything raises our suspicions we can do a consent search if we want for drugs and weapons. here in AZ we have a thing called crime free multi-housing communities. Basically it means tenants sign special crime-free leases which state that if they are involved in any criminal activity, or their guests are, regardless if they know about it, the tenant can be evicted.

    i usually only do vehicle contacts if I am with a partner.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lawson
    replied
    Black Jack and a billion other games.

    Leave a comment:


  • Eric
    replied
    Originally posted by BHR Lawson View Post
    I remember going to a Casino once where the speed limits were 21, I always thought that to be really weird.
    Black Jack played there?
    Maybe the legal age to enter?
    Either make more sense to me than 12 MPH, but I am all for slowing down.
    Last edited by Eric; 10-14-2007, 06:25 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lawson
    replied
    Originally posted by EMTGuard View Post
    Anyone entering the property I'm assigned to is subject to a resonable search which includes stopping them as they are driving. Plant speed limit is 12MPH. Bust that and you are getting stopped for sure. That's why I perfer industrial settings. None of this public vs private confusion.
    Just wondering... why the oddball speed limit? Why not 15 or 10?

    I remember going to a Casino once where the speed limits were 21, I always thought that to be really weird.

    Leave a comment:

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