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  • junkyarddog
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Caesar View Post
    Like Mr. Security said, the opinion of counsel should be sought. simply saying "well no one/the police ever said anything about it before" is a really bad justification. "No one ever told me not to" isn't a defense in court.
    One thing I will say is that my employer goes to bat for us. No need to be more specific than that.

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  • NRM_Oz
    replied
    They need to flee before it was a pursuit. Working in a business park I often drove a friend home from the same company who finished 30 minutes after me but was 3 miles way in another building. I drove down the public road to wait outside his building 1 night and was lit up by some orange lights behind me. I thought it was a street sweeper, or garbage, or break down, or tow trucker or anything else but security patrol. I kept driving as I made the carpark of the friend's building.

    I walk to the entrance and 2 males approach me from the car and begin to abuse me for not stopping when they flashed me. I asked if I had dropped anything or had something wrong with my car and they abuse me again for not stopping when they ordered me to stop. I asked them if they knew it ws a public road and if they were police in a disguise as my friend walks out completing his shift. He had seen most of it on CCTV and informed me it was recording (they do this for all visitors) after I had pressed the call button.

    He spots a passing Police Car and quickly flags them down (high crime area) and has them explain the law to these clowns who still insist they can make traffic stops. A week later all reports are filed and the Estate Manager terminates the contract as this was 1 of many complaints about them making traffic stops on a public road.

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  • Black Caesar
    replied
    Like Mr. Security said, the opinion of counsel should be sought. simply saying "well no one/the police ever said anything about it before" is a really bad justification. "No one ever told me not to" isn't a defense in court.

    Me personally, No way in hell you'd get me to stop someone on a public street if I were still a private security officer even it was legal , because without some form of qualified immunity all you are doing is opening yourself up to some career ending liabilities.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mr. Security
    replied
    Trick Question

    It becomes a chase once the person tries to evade you. (Following someone to long could be stalking) Blocking someone in would probably be a crime unless you witnessed a felony and were making a citizen's arrest. Otherwise, call the police and let them handle it.

    Leave a comment:


  • junkyarddog
    replied
    tricky question

    From the perspective that it is bad to follow anyone at any time on a public road:

    Lets say you are a mobile (regional) supervisor responsible for dozens of separate sites across a few counties (some with guards, some without) and you are also responsible for the mobile patrol, who's job it is to patrol each of sites that don't have a guard at them. Your mobile patrol officer calls you and says there is vehicle following HIM, the vehicle is definitely not police, and has followed them to several sites so far. You ask the S/O his eta for a specific location, then hide along the road to that location. Your S/O and the guy following him pass you, you pull out as inconspicuously as possible and follow the guy that is following your guy. Getting plate number, vehicle description etc.

    Now would you consider your following of that other guy a chase? Would you say that this is illegal as well?

    The last time this happened, two months ago, my S/O was going up a private one lane road leading to his next site, the guy followed him up that road, and I followed the guy up that road. The only way to get out is to either turn around inside the site, or to back out. So the guy was effectively blocked in by my S/O in front and myself in back.

    Before I say what happened, do you think it is wrong or "illegal" to have blocked the guy in?

    How it turned out- The guy ended up being a plainclothes investigator for the company doing quality control. We got a chuckle out of busting the guy trying to bust us. Then again, with these guys, he might have been just testing to how we react to people following the mobile patrol units because- as I said- it does occasionally happen.

    Leave a comment:


  • junkyarddog
    replied
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
    Most importantly, unless you're in a state where you are authorized to have 'police powers' or 'emergency vehicles,' its up to the guy you are pulling over to pull over, so you can't really call it a "vehicle stop" to begin with. A "vehicle stop" is commanding someone to pull over, not asking.
    My point exactly. Which is why I said in my post we follow until we get the necessary information. It is not like we call the police and say the guy refused to stop for us. The call simply describes what we have witnessed the person do, and the relevant details. When the police arrive, they usually ask for a detailed description of hat we did in response and we are happy to give it.

    IMO following someone down a public road until you get the info. you need is a good idea (within reason. You don't follow them miles and miles away). You don't even have to stop if they stop. The point is to observe and document the information, and then to report it immediately.

    3. Why is it every time someone gets in an argument here, its always about the forum member population in general?

    People, this forum isn't "about" anything like 'warm body security' or other such nonsense. Read the posts by members. While we have a few who prefer warm body security, and prefer to work it, we have many others who pro actively protect people and property.
    My own negative comments about this forum in the earlier post were said out of frustration in the moment. This is a good forum, and there is allot to learn from almost everyone who posts here.

    Leave a comment:


  • exguard
    replied
    Originally posted by EMTGuard View Post
    Anyone entering the property I'm assigned to is subject to a resonable search which includes stopping them as they are driving. Plant speed limit is 12MPH. Bust that and you are getting stopped for sure. That's why I perfer industrial settings. None of this public vs private confusion.
    I'm in an Industrial Setting as well and we due make traffic stops on our own plant vehicles, visitors, and outside contractors. Our Speed limit is posted at 15MPH and I'll usually bend up to about 22 maybe 25 depending on the time of day or night. Stop Signs I don't excuse....If I see them run I stop the person. We're supposed to "ticket" the offender with actual company designed and issued citations. Accumulate 6 points in one year and you loose the privlage to drive or operate plant machinery. We have over 1200 acres of property which includes 6 miles of roadway -

    I have yet to see a stop go bad inside the plant except for the occassional dispute between officer and employee {We're employees of the same company so really it's employee to employee} Most of the time the people know they screwed up and accept the fact they've been caught but there are those who'll fight you tooth and nail to proove thier innocent

    Leave a comment:


  • Hank1
    replied
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
    First off...

    1. Just because its illegal in your state, doesn't mean it is somewhere else.

    Minnesota law does not regulate the color of light displayed on a vehicle on private property. So, you can have a UFO with every color of the rainbow, so long as it doesn't become activated on public streets. Wisconsin doesn't, as well, and there were companies (with one of our members now owner) with red lights in their vehicles.

    2. Vehicle stops are one of our most heated topics, because its something that "emulates" police "authority."

    In some states, it is flat illegal for anyone but a police officer to conduct a vehicle stop. This is a fact of life, deal with it. You are violating the law when you do it.

    In other states, the state does not have a law against it, and as long as you are not violating other laws (impersonation, vehicle lamp color statues, etc. ad. nauseum.) then it is perfectly fine to conduct vehicle stops on private property.

    In other states, conducting vehicle stops on public property is also legal. Usually its legal by absentia, a statute does not make it illegal to do so.

    Most importantly, unless you're in a state where you are authorized to have 'police powers' or 'emergency vehicles,' its up to the guy you are pulling over to pull over, so you can't really call it a "vehicle stop" to begin with. A "vehicle stop" is commanding someone to pull over, not asking.

    3. Why is it every time someone gets in an argument here, its always about the forum member population in general?

    People, this forum isn't "about" anything like 'warm body security' or other such nonsense. Read the posts by members. While we have a few who prefer warm body security, and prefer to work it, we have many others who pro actively protect people and property.

    Everyone is reminded that just because something is seen as 'bad' in your locale doesn't mean its seen as bad in someone else's. There are companies out there with red and blue light in Missouri and Kansas. There are companies out there, with no police powers whatsoever, that are authorized to be called "Merchant Police," "Private Police," etc.

    They are not harassed by the police, and no one cares.

    Outstanding Nathan! Well said.

    Leave a comment:


  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    First off...

    1. Just because its illegal in your state, doesn't mean it is somewhere else.

    Minnesota law does not regulate the color of light displayed on a vehicle on private property. So, you can have a UFO with every color of the rainbow, so long as it doesn't become activated on public streets. Wisconsin doesn't, as well, and there were companies (with one of our members now owner) with red lights in their vehicles.

    2. Vehicle stops are one of our most heated topics, because its something that "emulates" police "authority."

    In some states, it is flat illegal for anyone but a police officer to conduct a vehicle stop. This is a fact of life, deal with it. You are violating the law when you do it.

    In other states, the state does not have a law against it, and as long as you are not violating other laws (impersonation, vehicle lamp color statues, etc. ad. nauseum.) then it is perfectly fine to conduct vehicle stops on private property.

    In other states, conducting vehicle stops on public property is also legal. Usually its legal by absentia, a statute does not make it illegal to do so.

    Most importantly, unless you're in a state where you are authorized to have 'police powers' or 'emergency vehicles,' its up to the guy you are pulling over to pull over, so you can't really call it a "vehicle stop" to begin with. A "vehicle stop" is commanding someone to pull over, not asking.

    3. Why is it every time someone gets in an argument here, its always about the forum member population in general?

    People, this forum isn't "about" anything like 'warm body security' or other such nonsense. Read the posts by members. While we have a few who prefer warm body security, and prefer to work it, we have many others who pro actively protect people and property.

    Everyone is reminded that just because something is seen as 'bad' in your locale doesn't mean its seen as bad in someone else's. There are companies out there with red and blue light in Missouri and Kansas. There are companies out there, with no police powers whatsoever, that are authorized to be called "Merchant Police," "Private Police," etc.

    They are not harassed by the police, and no one cares.

    Leave a comment:


  • Streethawk
    replied
    Here's a little something that will get Corbier & his cronies going for sure. (Note the last section of the statute)

    629.37 Minnesota Statutes

    629.37 WHEN A PRIVATE PERSON MAY MAKE AN ARREST.

    A private person may arrest another:

    (1) for a public offense committed or attempted in the arresting persons presence;

    (2) when the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in the arresting person's presence; or

    (3) when a felony has in fact been committed, and the arresting person has reasonable cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it.

    History: (10573) RL s 5232; 1985 c 265 art 10 s 1

    629.39 REQUIRING PRIVATE PERSON MAKING ARREST TO DELIVER ARRESTEE TO JUDGE OR PEACE OFFICER.
    A private person who arrests another for a public offense shall take the arrested person before a judge or peace officer without unnecessary delay. If a person arrested escapes, the person from whose custody the person has escaped may immediately pursue and retake the escapee, at any time and in any place in the state. For that purpose, the pursuer may break open any door or window of a dwelling house if the pursuer informs the escapee of the intent to arrest the escapee and the pursuer is refused admittance.History: (1075) RL s 5234; 1983 c 359 s 132; 1985 c 265 art 10 s 1; 1986 c 444


    It is also very interesting how that last paragraph is absent from almost all printed (including MPD Citizens Arrest Forms) versions of this statute. But it does exist.

    Digest that
    Last edited by Streethawk; 10-24-2007, 05:41 AM.

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  • junkyarddog
    replied
    Originally posted by BadBoynMD View Post
    Why should I do your homework? Obviously, sense this is the norm in the area you protect, you should be posting these laws yourself.
    You said what we do is illegal. It is on YOU to back up your comments.

    What counties?
    Not going there.

    Oh yeah, that's awesome, so if these subjects decide they want to shoot you, we all will know that you died smiling.
    Like stopping someone is the only times security officers ever get shot.

    What departments? I mean if they allow this, then theres no harm in stating who they are, right? So, what departments?
    Again, I won't go there on a public forum. Of course, every law enforcement agency across the country love it when people spread as much information as possible about their operations.

    You know as well as I do (I hope) that much of law enforcement is discretionary, there are many gray areas where the specific LEO has to use his own judgment, and anything involving the police is strictly need to know.

    I will say that what you guys are saying is generally very true, that there are only certain circumstances where a security officer should contact or stop anyone on public property. But those circumstances do come up.

    Leave a comment:


  • BadBoynMD
    replied
    The only thing I wannabe is someone who protects the interests of the customer. The hostility here is surprising to me.

    Please list the documentation in State (PA) or federal law. You said I would have made illegal mistakes. Please back that statement by pointing out what State or Federal laws I have broken. Please substantiate your comment by posting any case in the State of PA in which a person engaged in a crime, swerved around a security vehicle, hit another persons car and that other person ended up owning the security company in question.
    Why should I do your homework? Obviously, sense this is the norm in the area you protect, you should be posting these laws yourself.

    I'll take the words and actions of the law enforcement, court system etc. we deal with over some anonymous person on the internet any day, every day.
    Funny for all of the interaction we have with the police, court system etc. across several counties, we never once had anyone at all say to us that we were trying to be cops, breaking the law or at all risking even a civil suit.
    What counties?

    With a smile and a friendly hello. Body language, tone. You don't have to bust out of the car yelling and pointing a finger. People know what is up when you block them, they relax when you look and act relaxed.
    Oh yeah, that's awesome, so if these subjects decide they want to shoot you, we all will know that you died smiling.

    4 police departments in fact. Did you read the part where I said we don't chase people down residential streets because almost all of our sites are on isolated rural roads or in the middle of massive industrial parks?
    What departments? I mean if they allow this, then theres no harm in stating who they are, right? So, what departments?
    Last edited by BadBoynMD; 10-23-2007, 08:32 PM.

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  • junkyarddog
    replied
    Originally posted by BadBoynMD View Post
    First of all, you're not a police officer. Therefore, if I get outside of your property, and you block me in you've made SEVERAL mistakes, illegal mistakes at that. As I said you're not a police officer, you have ZERO authority to "block" anyone. You're a squirrel that's a wannabe. If you have that said evidence, your only job is to turn it over the "police" to let them do "their" job. By the way, if I were to swerve to avoid your "blocking" of my vehicle, and I, hit another person's (innocent victim) car and injure them, you're right, I won't be owning another company, that person who I hit will be.
    The only thing I wannabe is someone who protects the interests of the customer. The hostility here is surprising to me.

    Please list the documentation in State (PA) or federal law. You said I would have made illegal mistakes. Please back that statement by pointing out what State or Federal laws I have broken. Please substantiate your comment by posting any case in the State of PA in which a person engaged in a crime, swerved around a security vehicle, hit another persons car and that other person ended up owning the security company in question.

    You are blowing allot of internet-confidence hot air without providing any substantiation what so ever for your statements.



    I believe your words were....

    This is basically a chase, no matter what you call it.
    I'll take the words and actions of the law enforcement, court system etc. we deal with over some anonymous person on the internet any day, every day.
    Funny for all of the interaction we have with the police, court system etc. across several counties, we never once had anyone at all say to us that we were trying to be cops, breaking the law or at all risking even a civil suit.

    By the way how in the heck do you block someones vehicle and then approach in a non-threatening way?
    With a smile and a friendly hello. Body language, tone. You don't have to bust out of the car yelling and pointing a finger. People know what is up when you block them, they relax when you look and act relaxed.

    This is funny, a police department is not going to have issues with a SECURITY company, running blue lights and pulling traffic off property?
    4 police departments in fact. Did you read the part where I said we don't chase people down residential streets because almost all of our sites are on isolated rural roads or in the middle of massive industrial parks?

    Picture a long line of industry on the right and a river on the left with a public road in between that ends where the industry ends. No houses. No stores or restaurants or hotels or walk in business of any kind. 99% of the traffic is freight or employees during shift change. This is most of our sites. No they don't care if we pull someone over for good reason.

    Let me pull out my BS meter here. You're in a fantasy land, and you're going to get hurt.
    Are there any security forums that deal with more than warm body security? Seems when people talk about more than hitting detex chips, what uniform they like, or how much their employer stinks, they are attacked. Sorry, we do more than sleep in a guard house or sit there and watch movies all night on mini-dvd players. Sometimes...SOMETIMES...we have to make stops off property on a public road that links nothing but warehouses and mills, or some distant isolated rural road where you see more deer than cars.

    Also, you have no idea of the kind of industry we actually provide security for or the priority given this industry by law enforcement, local, county, state or federal.

    In short, lacking sufficient information to either demonstrate that what we do is illegal or even what we actually do, you shouldn't be forming conclusions soley based on the idea that yes we stop people that we catch or are highly suspicious of, off-site.
    Last edited by junkyarddog; 10-23-2007, 07:53 PM.

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  • bpdblue
    replied
    You had better be real careful on this subject.

    Making a traffic stop by anyone other than a lawfully allowed person (like a police officer) is probably a crime. First off, how are you making this stop, by using a red light. In California, and I would guess most states, this is a crime. I guess you could try to wave at them to get them to stop, but then you get into problem #2, are you then impersonating a police officer (another criminal offense). If the person pulls over and you start asking for their identification, asking them to get out, or to search their car you have indeed most likely gone over the line, and have committed a crime.

    As for the management or owner of the building / complex / property, ect, telling you that they want you to stop vehicles, or people, or whatever, they can tell you anything thing they want, but that does not mean you do it. You have to man-up and tell them what they ask for is illegal and you can't do it.

    You do know that if you did do something illegal, and tell the police that you were only doing what the management wanted that YOU are still the one in trouble. The management could just lie and say they never told you to do the act, or even if the are honest, all they have to say is that you should have told them it was illegal to do and they would not have asked you to do it.

    It will all come down on your shoulders. Don't let someone else have you do something that gets you arrested.

    Leave a comment:


  • BadBoynMD
    replied
    If I block you in- before you pull off- and you have half a ton of material stolen from our site in the bed of your pickup, AND I have digital photos of you coming out of the fence, your vehicle, your plate #, AND I have CCTV video of you committing the crime, I doubt very much you'll owning 'the second company'.
    First of all, you're not a police officer. Therefore, if I get outside of your property, and you block me in you've made SEVERAL mistakes, illegal mistakes at that. As I said you're not a police officer, you have ZERO authority to "block" anyone. You're a squirrel that's a wannabe. If you have that said evidence, your only job is to turn it over the "police" to let them do "their" job. By the way, if I were to swerve to avoid your "blocking" of my vehicle, and I, hit another person's (innocent victim) car and injure them, you're right, I won't be owning another company, that person who I hit will be.

    When did I say we chase anyone?
    I believe your words were....
    Here is an example: fenceline of a site runs parallel to the road, a few feet off the shoulder. There is a car parked on that shoulder (where there are clear no parking signs). Closing to 100 yards of the car, we notice an individual doing something to the fence near the car. Upon seeing us (25 yards) they get in the car and start pulling away. We make the stop and proceed as I outlined above. If the person hops in the car and guns away we pretty much follow them until we have all of the necessary information (make, model, estimate of year, plate number, number of occupants, description of occupants etc). If possible, we will simply block the vehicle in/get in its way and then approach in a non-threatening way.
    This is basically a chase, no matter what you call it. By the way how in the heck do you block someones vehicle and then approach in a non-threatening way?

    Did I mention that we absolutely won't do any off-property stops unless we are on good terms with the PD whos jurisdiction we are in?
    This is funny, a police department is not going to have issues with a SECURITY company, running blue lights and pulling traffic off property?

    PD's we are on good terms with are happy we make these stops as they often lead to arrests for the police who respond.
    Let me pull out my BS meter here. You're in a fantasy land, and you're going to get hurt.

    Leave a comment:

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