Making "stops" or "contact" via vehicle.

[ValleyOne]

I need a minute to take this all in...

Honestly, I have never seen a single police officer during any stop I've ever made. AFTER they are called is when we see the police. If we don't feel safe making the stop, or the person is evasive and we have good reason, we'll just call the police.

Consider yourself lucky...

Yep. Always have to call dispatch before making contact on anything serious (there is a procedure). Dispatch will call the supervisor, the supervisor will call the S/O. Also, guards have to call in every half hour, and mobile patrol units call in upon arrive and departure from every site they hit. Someone doesn't call 30 minutes from their last call, dispatch calls THEM. If they can't be reached, dispatch will call us (the supervisor on duty) and we will have them dispatch the next closest mobile patrol unit to the location, will head to the location ourselves and will make the determination of whether or not to ask for police assistance. It is up to the S/O to contact or not. Often we will get back up before making the contact or just call the police.

Mmm, every 30 minutes you have to call in, interesting as a local company here does that as well. I doubt it's a growing trend, as they are to busytrying sound cool on the radio, and rather annoying to listen to. But, hey, I can't afford XM Radio and the comedy channel so I got this company's freq in my scanner, it makes for some funny radio chatter.

So your shifting your response to this thread from traffic stop to contact. They are two totally different actions, right? On one hand you are not allowing a person to leave, Traffic stop. On the other you are merely engaging them in due social intercourse, ie a conversation. Learn the difference, as you cannot just pull someone over to have a conversation with them...

See above.

I did...

We drill that off-property stops are purely "friendly", never giving the impression that someone can't leave if they want. The idea is "occupy" (entertain, ask off-topic questions like directions, small talk etc) while observing and taking as much information in as possible until the police arrive. If the police were not called because no law was broken but their is suspicion of some threat to our customers property or interests, the stop is all about collecting information until either all the information you want is collected or the person decides to leave.

On property stops- trespassers- are about the same, with the exception that the police are definitely on their way and the person pretty much knows they are f'd when they see you so there is no point is playing stupid. Still no physical restraint, but making it as inconvenient as possible for them to leave before the police get there (ie finding someone on a property where the barbed wire fence was cut, its easy enough to block the hole in the fence with the truck and not help them by opening the locked gate.)

Ok head back into the office of the person that 'trained' you on these tactics and demand that they show you where you stand legally. Also, ask them if the company lawyer will be present to represent you when (not if) you get sued.

Once you turn the cool flashing lights on and someone actually pulls over because they think a POLICE OFFICER is pulling them over on a public road, off property-your words here. You have unlawfully detained them as well as, possibly given them the false impression that you are a police officer. Now, some states allow you to stop persons ON your property to determine if they, for lack of better term, 'belong' there. But, doing this on dang near any public road off property is the fastest way for you to loose you licsense, and your boss to loose his company.

What color lights do you guys run?

WTH, do you tell people when you pull them over on a public street? "Good evening, I am Officer X with STS Patrol and I noticed you ........ Can we talk about that for a minute? If not, how's your day going?"

If you paid any attention to that video you would have noticed that the state trooper didnt even have a chance to tell anyone that he was in a fight...for his life.

[junkyarddog]

Wait.... you are doing traffic stops off your property? How can you do that and make it seem friendly? When I see lights go on behind me I assume I am not free to leave, no matter how friendly the officer is.

Its not like we chase people across town. Here is an example: fenceline of a site runs parallel to the road, a few feet off the shoulder. There is a car parked on that shoulder (where there are clear no parking signs). Closing to 100 yards of the car, we notice an individual doing something to the fence near the car. Upon seeing us (25 yards) they get in the car and start pulling away. We make the stop and proceed as I outlined above. If the person hops in the car and guns away we pretty much follow them until we have all of the necessary information (make, model, estimate of year, plate number, number of occupants, description of occupants etc). If possible, we will simply block the vehicle in/get in its way and then approach in a non-threatening way.

[BadBoynMD]

Its not like we chase people across town. Here is an example: fenceline of a site runs parallel to the road, a few feet off the shoulder. There is a car parked on that shoulder (where there are clear no parking signs). Closing to 100 yards of the car, we notice an individual doing something to the fence near the car. Upon seeing us (25 yards) they get in the car and start pulling away. We make the stop and proceed as I outlined above. If the person hops in the car and guns away we pretty much follow them until we have all of the necessary information (make, model, estimate of year, plate number, number of occupants, description of occupants etc). If possible, we will simply block the vehicle in/get in its way and then approach in a non-threatening way.

Wait a minute... slow down toughie (my word, well barrrowed word)... I need to take this all in as well.

Let me get this straight... Not only are you conducting traffic off property, but you're blocking in vehicles? and approaching in a NON-threatening way? How in the H-E-double hockey sticks can you chase (yes, chase) a vehicle, block it in and then approach in a non-threatening way???? All I gotta say is, let you do that to me, i'll be owning a second company.

[junkyarddog]

I need a minute to take this all in...

Consider yourself lucky...

Did I mention that we absolutely won't do any off-property stops unless we are on good terms with the PD whos jurisdiction we are in? There are allot of variables, and my last post was already long. PD's we are on good terms with are happy we make these stops as they often lead to arrests for the police who respond. Some of our sites are hotspots for theft and tend to attract people who commit more crimes than simply trying to steal from us. The police are given keys to these areas and we run into them on these properties at least once a day. They sit and wait for the criminals to come to them. And they do. As agents of our customer, we do not have to give the police access to these sites and they know that. So it is a give and take. They get to hide on property and wait for the bust to come to them and we get to stop people if we have reason to believe they were on our site, so long as the stop is in the immediate vicinity of the site its self. None of us are gung-ho about stopping people off property and some of us won't do it.

Mmm, every 30 minutes you have to call in, interesting as a local company here does that as well. I doubt it's a growing trend, as they are to busytrying sound cool on the radio, and rather annoying to listen to. But, hey, I can't afford XM Radio and the comedy channel so I got this company's freq in my scanner, it makes for some funny radio chatter.

That is not us.

So your shifting your response to this thread from traffic stop to contact. They are two totally different actions, right? On one hand you are not allowing a person to leave, Traffic stop. On the other you are merely engaging them in due social intercourse, ie a conversation. Learn the difference, as you cannot just pull someone over to have a conversation with them...

Ok head back into the office of the person that 'trained' you on these tactics and demand that they show you where you stand legally. Also, ask them if the company lawyer will be present to represent you when (not if) you get sued.

Once you turn the cool flashing lights on and someone actually pulls over because they think a POLICE OFFICER is pulling them over on a public road, off property-your words here. You have unlawfully detained them as well as, possibly given them the false impression that you are a police officer. Now, some states allow you to stop persons ON your property to determine if they, for lack of better term, 'belong' there. But, doing this on dang near any public road off property is the fastest way for you to loose you licsense, and your boss to loose his company.

In my state, only the police may have red and blue light bars (ours are blue only), and the huge "SECURITY" sign on the side of our vehicles and uniforms covered in the word "security" are plenty to let people know we are not police.

To be specific, the first thing we tell someone after stopping them with the lights on, off property, is that we are not police. Sometimes after making the stop and getting the visual information, the conversation is as short as, "You were on property that is clearly posted 'No Trespassing', please don't trespass that property again. Goodnight."

Lights off contact on or off property is more friendly as I described in the other post. It all depends on what is going on. Someone just sitting in their car in a one lane drive leading to the gate of a site means we pull in front of them and approach in a friendly manner with the lights off. Someone who cut the lock of the gate, has their pickup truck on the actual property, and jumps in and starts to pull out when we arrive is something else.

What color lights do you guys run?

blue

WTH, do you tell people when you pull them over on a public street? "Good evening, I am Officer X with STS Patrol and I noticed you ........ Can we talk about that for a minute? If not, how's your day going?"

It all depends on what they were doing. I gave some examples above. Something else you should know is that the sites we hit are fairly isolated industrial or rural areas. The public roads we make stops on are not like city streets with houses and walk-in businesses. They are country back roads or
roads connecting nothing but heavy industrial and warehousing complexes. They are rarely used by anyone who is not associated with either the property its self or one of mills, warehouses (etc). The police know this and make a habit of stopping (without lights) anyone who does not look like they belong in these areas.

If you paid any attention to that video you would have noticed that the state trooper didnt even have a chance to tell anyone that he was in a fight...for his life.

The trooper also made the guy get out of the car, was grabbing on him, giving him orders etc. We do NOTHING like that. If someone starts getting out of their car, we get right back into ours. If we even get out of the car. Most stops, we simply pull up to the window of the car and try to keep the space between vehicles close enough so the person can't simply explode out of the car at us. On property stops are different.

We aren't looking for an arrest (as that trooper was, as almost every LEO is) we are simply looking for information.

[junkyarddog]

Wait a minute... slow down toughie (my word, well barrrowed word)... I need to take this all in as well.

Let me get this straight... Not only are you conducting traffic off property, but you're blocking in vehicles? and approaching in a NON-threatening way? How in the H-E-double hockey sticks can you chase (yes, chase) a vehicle, block it in and then approach in a non-threatening way???? All I gotta say is, let you do that to me, i'll be owning a second company.

If I block you in- before you pull off- and you have half a ton of material stolen from our site in the bed of your pickup, AND I have digital photos of you coming out of the fence, your vehicle, your plate #, AND I have CCTV video of you committing the crime, I doubt very much you'll owning 'the second company'.

When did I say we chase anyone? I said we DON'T chase anyone. Also, your getting this mixed up. We don't follow someone and then block them, we try to block them before they take off. If someone is on a drive that leads ONLY to one of our sites, yes I am going to block them in. If someone is pulled against our fenceline and is outside their vehicle, tampering with the fence, yes I am going to obstruct their vehicle with mine.

I don't get how you guys think this is extreme. The reason why we never have a legal problem with this is because we exercise excellent judgment in making any contact with anyone at all. If someone is putting a sign for a pizza store on the fence, I am going to pull up and tell them to stop it, to call our customer for permission, and if I see a pizza sign up without permission I am going to take it off and throw it away. If I see someone tampering with the fence (cutting a hole in it with bolt cutters, trying to climb it, trying to pull something from the other side through it) I am going to be snapping off pictures as I pull up, will try to obstruct the vehicle, and will call the police.

It is shocking to me, because the police NEVER have a problem with this. Just last week, on a public road immediately outside the employee gate of one of our sites, I stopped someone and it worked out great. The gate was open (was later found to be forced) a car came roaring out, smashed against the high curb (busting the tire and the rim) and limped down the street in front of me. On went my lights, I followed the vehicle, snapped a few shots of vehicle and plate, called the police with the plate # and description, the car stopped about a quarter of a mile later, and three people opened the doors and ran up a nearby hillside. I called dispatch and had them run the plate through the corporate directory, got the cell associated with the vehicle and called the owner. The police arrived about 7 minutes after the vehicle had stopped. I was still sitting behind it with my stupid blue lights on. I dealt with the police, and when it was all said and done, they thanked me. It is rare that employees of our customers will have their car stolen from the actual site its self, but this is just an example. We deal with law enforcement all the time, never with a problem.

[BadBoynMD]

If I block you in- before you pull off- and you have half a ton of material stolen from our site in the bed of your pickup, AND I have digital photos of you coming out of the fence, your vehicle, your plate #, AND I have CCTV video of you committing the crime, I doubt very much you'll owning 'the second company'.

First of all, you're not a police officer. Therefore, if I get outside of your property, and you block me in you've made SEVERAL mistakes, illegal mistakes at that. As I said you're not a police officer, you have ZERO authority to "block" anyone. You're a squirrel that's a wannabe. If you have that said evidence, your only job is to turn it over the "police" to let them do "their" job. By the way, if I were to swerve to avoid your "blocking" of my vehicle, and I, hit another person's (innocent victim) car and injure them, you're right, I won't be owning another company, that person who I hit will be.

When did I say we chase anyone?

I believe your words were....

Here is an example: fenceline of a site runs parallel to the road, a few feet off the shoulder. There is a car parked on that shoulder (where there are clear no parking signs). Closing to 100 yards of the car, we notice an individual doing something to the fence near the car. Upon seeing us (25 yards) they get in the car and start pulling away. We make the stop and proceed as I outlined above. If the person hops in the car and guns away we pretty much follow them until we have all of the necessary information (make, model, estimate of year, plate number, number of occupants, description of occupants etc). If possible, we will simply block the vehicle in/get in its way and then approach in a non-threatening way.

This is basically a chase, no matter what you call it. By the way how in the heck do you block someones vehicle and then approach in a non-threatening way?

Did I mention that we absolutely won't do any off-property stops unless we are on good terms with the PD whos jurisdiction we are in?

This is funny, a police department is not going to have issues with a SECURITY company, running blue lights and pulling traffic off property?

PD's we are on good terms with are happy we make these stops as they often lead to arrests for the police who respond.

Let me pull out my BS meter here. You're in a fantasy land, and you're going to get hurt.

[bpdblue]

You had better be real careful on this subject.

Making a traffic stop by anyone other than a lawfully allowed person (like a police officer) is probably a crime. First off, how are you making this stop, by using a red light. In California, and I would guess most states, this is a crime. I guess you could try to wave at them to get them to stop, but then you get into problem #2, are you then impersonating a police officer (another criminal offense). If the person pulls over and you start asking for their identification, asking them to get out, or to search their car you have indeed most likely gone over the line, and have committed a crime.

As for the management or owner of the building / complex / property, ect, telling you that they want you to stop vehicles, or people, or whatever, they can tell you anything thing they want, but that does not mean you do it. You have to man-up and tell them what they ask for is illegal and you can't do it.

You do know that if you did do something illegal, and tell the police that you were only doing what the management wanted that YOU are still the one in trouble. The management could just lie and say they never told you to do the act, or even if the are honest, all they have to say is that you should have told them it was illegal to do and they would not have asked you to do it.

It will all come down on your shoulders. Don't let someone else have you do something that gets you arrested.

[junkyarddog]

First of all, you're not a police officer. Therefore, if I get outside of your property, and you block me in you've made SEVERAL mistakes, illegal mistakes at that. As I said you're not a police officer, you have ZERO authority to "block" anyone. You're a squirrel that's a wannabe. If you have that said evidence, your only job is to turn it over the "police" to let them do "their" job. By the way, if I were to swerve to avoid your "blocking" of my vehicle, and I, hit another person's (innocent victim) car and injure them, you're right, I won't be owning another company, that person who I hit will be.

The only thing I wannabe is someone who protects the interests of the customer. The hostility here is surprising to me.

Please list the documentation in State (PA) or federal law. You said I would have made illegal mistakes. Please back that statement by pointing out what State or Federal laws I have broken. Please substantiate your comment by posting any case in the State of PA in which a person engaged in a crime, swerved around a security vehicle, hit another persons car and that other person ended up owning the security company in question.

You are blowing allot of internet-confidence hot air without providing any substantiation what so ever for your statements.

I believe your words were....

This is basically a chase, no matter what you call it.

I'll take the words and actions of the law enforcement, court system etc. we deal with over some anonymous person on the internet any day, every day.
Funny for all of the interaction we have with the police, court system etc. across several counties, we never once had anyone at all say to us that we were trying to be cops, breaking the law or at all risking even a civil suit.

By the way how in the heck do you block someones vehicle and then approach in a non-threatening way?

With a smile and a friendly hello. Body language, tone. You don't have to bust out of the car yelling and pointing a finger. People know what is up when you block them, they relax when you look and act relaxed.

This is funny, a police department is not going to have issues with a SECURITY company, running blue lights and pulling traffic off property?

4 police departments in fact. Did you read the part where I said we don't chase people down residential streets because almost all of our sites are on isolated rural roads or in the middle of massive industrial parks?

Picture a long line of industry on the right and a river on the left with a public road in between that ends where the industry ends. No houses. No stores or restaurants or hotels or walk in business of any kind. 99% of the traffic is freight or employees during shift change. This is most of our sites. No they don't care if we pull someone over for good reason.

Let me pull out my BS meter here. You're in a fantasy land, and you're going to get hurt.

Are there any security forums that deal with more than warm body security? Seems when people talk about more than hitting detex chips, what uniform they like, or how much their employer stinks, they are attacked. Sorry, we do more than sleep in a guard house or sit there and watch movies all night on mini-dvd players. Sometimes...SOMETIMES...we have to make stops off property on a public road that links nothing but warehouses and mills, or some distant isolated rural road where you see more deer than cars.

Also, you have no idea of the kind of industry we actually provide security for or the priority given this industry by law enforcement, local, county, state or federal.

In short, lacking sufficient information to either demonstrate that what we do is illegal or even what we actually do, you shouldn't be forming conclusions soley based on the idea that yes we stop people that we catch or are highly suspicious of, off-site.

[BadBoynMD]

The only thing I wannabe is someone who protects the interests of the customer. The hostility here is surprising to me.

Please list the documentation in State (PA) or federal law. You said I would have made illegal mistakes. Please back that statement by pointing out what State or Federal laws I have broken. Please substantiate your comment by posting any case in the State of PA in which a person engaged in a crime, swerved around a security vehicle, hit another persons car and that other person ended up owning the security company in question.

Why should I do your homework? Obviously, sense this is the norm in the area you protect, you should be posting these laws yourself.

I'll take the words and actions of the law enforcement, court system etc. we deal with over some anonymous person on the internet any day, every day.
Funny for all of the interaction we have with the police, court system etc. across several counties, we never once had anyone at all say to us that we were trying to be cops, breaking the law or at all risking even a civil suit.

What counties?

With a smile and a friendly hello. Body language, tone. You don't have to bust out of the car yelling and pointing a finger. People know what is up when you block them, they relax when you look and act relaxed.

Oh yeah, that's awesome, so if these subjects decide they want to shoot you, we all will know that you died smiling.

4 police departments in fact. Did you read the part where I said we don't chase people down residential streets because almost all of our sites are on isolated rural roads or in the middle of massive industrial parks?

What departments? I mean if they allow this, then theres no harm in stating who they are, right? So, what departments?

[junkyarddog]

Why should I do your homework? Obviously, sense this is the norm in the area you protect, you should be posting these laws yourself.

You said what we do is illegal. It is on YOU to back up your comments.

What counties?

Not going there.

Oh yeah, that's awesome, so if these subjects decide they want to shoot you, we all will know that you died smiling.

Like stopping someone is the only times security officers ever get shot.

What departments? I mean if they allow this, then theres no harm in stating who they are, right? So, what departments?

Again, I won't go there on a public forum. Of course, every law enforcement agency across the country love it when people spread as much information as possible about their operations.

You know as well as I do (I hope) that much of law enforcement is discretionary, there are many gray areas where the specific LEO has to use his own judgment, and anything involving the police is strictly need to know.

I will say that what you guys are saying is generally very true, that there are only certain circumstances where a security officer should contact or stop anyone on public property. But those circumstances do come up.

[Streethawk]

Here's a little something that will get Corbier & his cronies going for sure. (Note the last section of the statute)

629.37 Minnesota Statutes

629.37 WHEN A PRIVATE PERSON MAY MAKE AN ARREST.

A private person may arrest another:

(1) for a public offense committed or attempted in the arresting persons presence;

(2) when the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in the arresting person's presence; or

(3) when a felony has in fact been committed, and the arresting person has reasonable cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it.

History: (10573) RL s 5232; 1985 c 265 art 10 s 1

629.39 REQUIRING PRIVATE PERSON MAKING ARREST TO DELIVER ARRESTEE TO JUDGE OR PEACE OFFICER.
A private person who arrests another for a public offense shall take the arrested person before a judge or peace officer without unnecessary delay. If a person arrested escapes, the person from whose custody the person has escaped may immediately pursue and retake the escapee, at any time and in any place in the state. For that purpose, the pursuer may break open any door or window of a dwelling house if the pursuer informs the escapee of the intent to arrest the escapee and the pursuer is refused admittance.History: (1075) RL s 5234; 1983 c 359 s 132; 1985 c 265 art 10 s 1; 1986 c 444


It is also very interesting how that last paragraph is absent from almost all printed (including MPD Citizens Arrest Forms) versions of this statute. But it does exist.

Digest that

[N. A. Corbier]

First off...

1. Just because its illegal in your state, doesn't mean it is somewhere else.

Minnesota law does not regulate the color of light displayed on a vehicle on private property. So, you can have a UFO with every color of the rainbow, so long as it doesn't become activated on public streets. Wisconsin doesn't, as well, and there were companies (with one of our members now owner) with red lights in their vehicles.

2. Vehicle stops are one of our most heated topics, because its something that "emulates" police "authority."

In some states, it is flat illegal for anyone but a police officer to conduct a vehicle stop. This is a fact of life, deal with it. You are violating the law when you do it.

In other states, the state does not have a law against it, and as long as you are not violating other laws (impersonation, vehicle lamp color statues, etc. ad. nauseum.) then it is perfectly fine to conduct vehicle stops on private property.

In other states, conducting vehicle stops on public property is also legal. Usually its legal by absentia, a statute does not make it illegal to do so.

Most importantly, unless you're in a state where you are authorized to have 'police powers' or 'emergency vehicles,' its up to the guy you are pulling over to pull over, so you can't really call it a "vehicle stop" to begin with. A "vehicle stop" is commanding someone to pull over, not asking.

3. Why is it every time someone gets in an argument here, its always about the forum member population in general?

People, this forum isn't "about" anything like 'warm body security' or other such nonsense. Read the posts by members. While we have a few who prefer warm body security, and prefer to work it, we have many others who pro actively protect people and property.

Everyone is reminded that just because something is seen as 'bad' in your locale doesn't mean its seen as bad in someone else's. There are companies out there with red and blue light in Missouri and Kansas. There are companies out there, with no police powers whatsoever, that are authorized to be called "Merchant Police," "Private Police," etc.

They are not harassed by the police, and no one cares.

[Hank1]

First off...

1. Just because its illegal in your state, doesn't mean it is somewhere else.

Minnesota law does not regulate the color of light displayed on a vehicle on private property. So, you can have a UFO with every color of the rainbow, so long as it doesn't become activated on public streets. Wisconsin doesn't, as well, and there were companies (with one of our members now owner) with red lights in their vehicles.

2. Vehicle stops are one of our most heated topics, because its something that "emulates" police "authority."

In some states, it is flat illegal for anyone but a police officer to conduct a vehicle stop. This is a fact of life, deal with it. You are violating the law when you do it.

In other states, the state does not have a law against it, and as long as you are not violating other laws (impersonation, vehicle lamp color statues, etc. ad. nauseum.) then it is perfectly fine to conduct vehicle stops on private property.

In other states, conducting vehicle stops on public property is also legal. Usually its legal by absentia, a statute does not make it illegal to do so.

Most importantly, unless you're in a state where you are authorized to have 'police powers' or 'emergency vehicles,' its up to the guy you are pulling over to pull over, so you can't really call it a "vehicle stop" to begin with. A "vehicle stop" is commanding someone to pull over, not asking.

3. Why is it every time someone gets in an argument here, its always about the forum member population in general?

People, this forum isn't "about" anything like 'warm body security' or other such nonsense. Read the posts by members. While we have a few who prefer warm body security, and prefer to work it, we have many others who pro actively protect people and property.

Everyone is reminded that just because something is seen as 'bad' in your locale doesn't mean its seen as bad in someone else's. There are companies out there with red and blue light in Missouri and Kansas. There are companies out there, with no police powers whatsoever, that are authorized to be called "Merchant Police," "Private Police," etc.

They are not harassed by the police, and no one cares.

Outstanding Nathan! Well said.

[exguard]

Anyone entering the property I'm assigned to is subject to a resonable search which includes stopping them as they are driving. Plant speed limit is 12MPH. Bust that and you are getting stopped for sure. That's why I perfer industrial settings. None of this public vs private confusion.

I'm in an Industrial Setting as well and we due make traffic stops on our own plant vehicles, visitors, and outside contractors. Our Speed limit is posted at 15MPH and I'll usually bend up to about 22 maybe 25 depending on the time of day or night. Stop Signs I don't excuse....If I see them run I stop the person. We're supposed to "ticket" the offender with actual company designed and issued citations. Accumulate 6 points in one year and you loose the privlage to drive or operate plant machinery. We have over 1200 acres of property which includes 6 miles of roadway -

I have yet to see a stop go bad inside the plant except for the occassional dispute between officer and employee {We're employees of the same company so really it's employee to employee} Most of the time the people know they screwed up and accept the fact they've been caught but there are those who'll fight you tooth and nail to proove thier innocent

[junkyarddog]

Most importantly, unless you're in a state where you are authorized to have 'police powers' or 'emergency vehicles,' its up to the guy you are pulling over to pull over, so you can't really call it a "vehicle stop" to begin with. A "vehicle stop" is commanding someone to pull over, not asking.

My point exactly. Which is why I said in my post we follow until we get the necessary information. It is not like we call the police and say the guy refused to stop for us. The call simply describes what we have witnessed the person do, and the relevant details. When the police arrive, they usually ask for a detailed description of hat we did in response and we are happy to give it.

IMO following someone down a public road until you get the info. you need is a good idea (within reason. You don't follow them miles and miles away). You don't even have to stop if they stop. The point is to observe and document the information, and then to report it immediately.

3. Why is it every time someone gets in an argument here, its always about the forum member population in general?

People, this forum isn't "about" anything like 'warm body security' or other such nonsense. Read the posts by members. While we have a few who prefer warm body security, and prefer to work it, we have many others who pro actively protect people and property.

My own negative comments about this forum in the earlier post were said out of frustration in the moment. This is a good forum, and there is allot to learn from almost everyone who posts here.