countries with full weapons bans still plagued

[Ron Jessee]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=38b_1179510763

take note of some of the facts here. Japan, with no civillian weapons allowed at ALL has its outbreaks of guncrimes. officers gunned down, even the mayor of Nagasaki. And the officer shot and injured waited for help for 5 hours because the POLICE didn't have the weapons nessesary to deal with the situation at the time.

Admittedly Japan has nowhere near the gun crime we do, but you can be sure that any gun not in LEO or military hands there isn't registered and on file, because only the criminals have them...

a few other nice videos:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=875e8b7917
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkS2BRoCd2I

[Maelstrom]

I would imagine the Yakuza wouldn't experience too much difficulty sourcing weapons for it's arsenal, more than likely they're also the individuals behind those deaths/incidents

[HotelSecurity]

I can think of one famous incident in California where the US Police did not have the gun power to stop 2 heavily armed bank robbers.

[integrator97]

I can think of one famous incident in California where the US Police did not have the gun power to stop 2 heavily armed bank robbers.

That still amazes me.

First of all, it proves the stats I like to spout when someone says they don't need an alarm, they got a gun. The most experienced and highest rated shooters saw there accuracy plummet when shooting under stress that simulates being shot at. That's why in so many shoot outs hardly anyone gets hit. It's a whole different ballgame when someone is shooting back.

And I guess California needs to have failure to stop drills. We had them when I was at Concord Naval Weapons Station. 2 to the chest and 2 to the head. Why nobody shot them in the head or ankles I don't know. Even with body armor, you take a shot to the face or head, you're gonna know it. You gotta have a bull neck to take that force very much.

[Lawson]

Its not easy to score a headshot at those distances with a Beretta while coming under heavy fire that is ripping right through your cover.

[integrator97]

Its not easy to score a headshot at those distances with a Beretta while coming under heavy fire that is ripping right through your cover.

Hence the first part of my response. But as long as the lasted, and as many shots as were fired....

I'm not an expert shot, but I hope, knowing what I know about accuracy and stress levels, etc, that if I ever need to I can remember this and will myself to take the time I need to get the shot off. Not saying I can or will, or that I'd be any better than anyone else. But if I can remember that I probably have lots of time to take aim. Also, I have no problem in taking a life if necessary. Will I feel that way when I have to, we'll see. But so many people say they couldn't, that they probably can't. I'm not under any illusions that I won't panic, or I won't feel remorse. I won't know till I get there. But I personnally feel that some people just deserve to die. I have no problem being the one to help them. (Which is why I'm not a cop. The guy they're looking for in Nevada, with the little girl he had on tape. If I was the cop that found him, he wouldn't make it in alive. No doubt in his guilt, I won't give the justice system a chance to screw it up).

Sorry, kind of got off track.

[Ron Jessee]

About body armor. The course I took emphasized shooting low on the center of mass, around the pelvis where you're not typically going to find armor.

The head obviously is fair game, but is a terribly hard target when everyones moving around.

One thing I try to do during range time is I have ear piece phones that go right under my ear protection. I play the hardest rock I can find at a high volume. It's NOT like getting shot at but it DOES pump your heartrate up and creates that gross motor control situation that fight.flight stress creates. It's a good simulation, and I get to listen to tunes. Not a bad deal.

[Lawson]

One of the best firearm training sessions we had was one where you had to drive your patrol car up to a set of two targets then quickly draw your gun from inside the car and fire two rounds into each target. You then get out and tactically move around the car, using it for cover and fire two more rounds into each. You then ground your weapon and one of the instructors takes you for a run. When you get back, you find your firearm disabled and you must put it back together while answering basic questions (What is 5x6? What is the code for DUI? What is the price for 5 over in a 35?) the instructors ask you. Once you get the gun reassembled, you fire two more rounds into each target from the cover of the vehicle.

It's great at simulating pulling up on a call and having suspects draw guns on you. The run gets your heart rate up and your stress levels can go through the roof. I remember at one point in time I was having trouble getting a pin into my gun and I started pounding on it with my palm. There were people putting their barrels in backwards, loading ammo the wrong way, etc... it's great at simulating stress.

[N. A. Corbier]

Iif your range allows you, do jumping jacks, then pushups, till you are out of breath. THEN try to shoot.

Welcome to shooting after a foot pursuit. Aerobic to tire you, then upper arm exercises to destroy your fine muscle movement skills.

[Bill Warnock]

Iif your range allows you, do jumping jacks, then pushups, till you are out of breath. THEN try to shoot.

Welcome to shooting after a foot pursuit. Aerobic to tire you, then upper arm exercises to destroy your fine muscle movement skills.

Nathan et al, I have preached, taught and begged shooters to run in place for about 30-seconds then fire a string of three rounds, two center mass and one to the head.
At night have the instructor flash a high beam of light for an instant at a reflective disk and the trainee shooter fires at the target where the reflective disk is hopefully located.
Neat stuff, came off the line soaking with sweat!
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[DeputyJ]

Integrator97 posted, "And I guess California needs to have failure to stop drills. We had them when I was at Concord Naval Weapons Station. 2 to the chest and 2 to the head. Why nobody shot them in the head or ankles I don't know. Even with body armor, you take a shot to the face or head, you're gonna know it. You gotta have a bull neck to take that force very much."

First, in California failure to stop drills are standard at police academy qualifications and most department qualifications. Second, there are a couple of good documentaries about the North Hollywood shootout, if you listen to the dispatch traffic you can hear the order to go for head shots. I would guess it is very difficult to shot a moving target in the head who is shooting at you with a high powered, automatic rifle. Especially while you lack sufficent cover.

In my opinion, unless you've been there or been in a similar circumstance you can't judge the actions of others. Now of course if you've faced heavily armed suspects, covered from the neck all the way down to their feet in body armor, who are armed with high powered rifles, while you are armed with a 9mm pistol, and have little or no cover, go ahead and "Monday Night Quarterback" the actions of the brave officers.
Stay Safe.

[Ron Jessee]

In the class I took it was called the Monrovia drill for some reason

[N. A. Corbier]

So far, I've heard:

Bailer Drill
Mozambique Drill
Failure to Stop Drill

... now adding Monrovia Drill to the list.

It keeps being named after the place someone reinvented the thing and it saved them from being killed. Usually someone who is in the military, or is a gun guru.

I guess the "Will you f-ing die already?!" drill isn't politically correct.

[integrator97]

I would guess it is very difficult to shot a moving target in the head who is shooting at you with a high powered, automatic rifle. Especially while you lack sufficent cover.

In my opinion, unless you've been there or been in a similar circumstance you can't judge the actions of others. Now of course if you've faced heavily armed suspects, covered from the neck all the way down to their feet in body armor, who are armed with high powered rifles, while you are armed with a 9mm pistol, and have little or no cover, go ahead and "Monday Night Quarterback" the actions of the brave officers.
Stay Safe.

As I said in an earlier post, I'm not promising how I would react in a shootout, but hope I could use the knowledge I have to keep my wits.

I have watched several of the documentaries. All I'm saying is this lasted quite a while. It's understandable on the 1st responding officers, but later there were quite a lot, and these guys weren't moving fast. Hell, they went blocks as I recall, with one walking by the moving car. I'm just saying there were opportunities.

[DeputyJ]

Posted by Integrator, "All I'm saying is this lasted quite a while. It's understandable on the 1st responding officers, but later there were quite a lot, and these guys weren't moving fast. Hell, they went blocks as I recall, with one walking by the moving car. I'm just saying there were opportunities."

I'm sure none of the LAPD officers attempted head shots, the situation might have been resolved faster if you were in charge. Come on man, do you really think it's that easy to hit a moving target in the head, who by the way just happens to be shooting at you with an automatice rifle. You stated that you've watch some of the documentaries on the shoot out, did you happen to see that the distances between the police and the suspects was well beyound 25 yards at times. It is very difficult to hit head shots at 25 yards without someone trying to kill you.

It's great you are attempting to think tactically, but please be realistic. I wish you well.

Stay Safe.