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  • #16
    Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
    While police officers are exempt from the specific law to which you refer, NO police officer (who is not in performance of his official duties under the authority of a warrant or special "warrantless" situations) may arbitrarily abrogate or extinguish an owner's property rights, including his right to exclude ANY persons or ANY contraband that he sees fit. The constitutionally-derived property and privacy rights will always trump any state statute in this regard, especially when it comes to agents of the state.
    I've already mentioned that I respected the establishment's right to forbid firearms on their premises. That's the reason I didn't tell them to pound sand.

    Originally posted by SecTrainer
    So, even if the type of property is not named in the CCW law as a "no-carry" property (bars, schools, etc.) - such as, for instance, a mall - the owner of that property has the right to exclude ALL weapons from the property carried by any persons, including (perhaps even especially including) a police officer who is not on duty or engaged in performance of his duty. Police officers enjoy no special powers to contravene individual constitutional rights, and in fact come under even greater obligation than the "ordinary citizen" to be certain that they do not do so. You're an LEO off-duty who's packing and you come onto my property, you and/or your gun are going elsewhere if I tell you to vamoose. Period.
    Police officers do not carry their firearms under authority of any CCW laws, but under the authority as sworn officers of the state. We are not subject to CCW restrictions. There are but two places I cannot lawfully carry--certain areas of detention facilities and certain courthouses. Unless you specifically and personally ask me to not carry my firearm into your establishment, I'll disregard all posted signs and notices that state firearms are not allowed. They are generally directed towards CCW carriers and not police officers.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by LPGuy View Post
      I've already mentioned that I respected the establishment's right to forbid firearms on their premises. That's the reason I didn't tell them to pound sand.



      Police officers do not carry their firearms under authority of any CCW laws, but under the authority as sworn officers of the state. We are not subject to CCW restrictions. There are but two places I cannot lawfully carry--certain areas of detention facilities and certain courthouses. Unless you specifically and personally ask me to not carry my firearm into your establishment, I'll disregard all posted signs and notices that state firearms are not allowed. They are generally directed towards CCW carriers and not police officers.
      You're conflating two different issues here, or perhaps I'm stating the point badly. I am not saying that LEOs carry under the authority of the CCW law.

      I'm simply saying that the LEO's sworn status, unless he is actively engaged in the performance of his duty, does NOT authorize him to contravene the rights of any property owner to exclude firearms from his property and in fact imposes an even greater obligation on him not to do so, relative to the average citizen, because the LEO can commit constitutional intrusions that an average citizen cannot. The issue here isn't the CCW law; it is the constitution. You CAN carry as an LEO anywhere except the places you mention, but that is not to say that you MAY do so. So, if you've been taught that an LEO may ignore posted signs flatly prohibiting the carrying of firearms onto a private property, I think you might find it profitable to consult your own attorney on this matter.

      I made a quick check of Washington case law on this subject and find nothing that is exactly on point to this question. I'd be willing to bet that the question would turn, in part, on whether the property is, in fact, strictly private property or falls under the category of "quasi-public" private property. If so, the problem becomes very interesting. You might then, as an LEO, carry your weapon into the lobby of an office building, where the space is quasi-public, but I am dead certain that I can legally prevent you from carrying it into my private office space - and by no more notice to you than posting a properly worded sign, by the way! I am not required to "contact you personally". Your violation of such a request could well constitute uninvited governmental intrusion. (Again, we're not talking about an LEO performing his duties.)

      What we really need to teach people in our police academies is that most courts take a very dim view of armed police throwing their weight around (as they see it), committing trespasses or ignoring the rights of citizens on the basis of their "sworn status". You'd better learn to carry your "sworn status" very lightly...it really doesn't grant you much power when you're not engaged in law enforcement activity and may actually constrain you in certain ways that private citizens are not. You can't contravene traffic laws, you can't enter private properties, you can't cut ahead of the line at the Dairy Queen, carry prohibited refreshments into the football stadium, brandish your weapon, park in no-parking zones, or say "boo" to a private citizen by way of imposing any power of the state. You cannot, in fact, do very much of anything that a private citizen may not do, and in some cases LESS.

      It's very enlightening to Google up stories about police officers who find themselves arrested, sued without departmental "coverage", and/or dismissed from police service for activities while off-duty that they believed they could get away with. You won't find any shortage of reading material. "Sworn status" is a very useful concept when you're engaged in authorized LEO duties. Otherwise, your "sworn status" and a few bucks will buy you a 12-oz latte.
      Last edited by SecTrainer; 09-14-2007, 10:42 PM.
      "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

      "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

      "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

      "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

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      • #18
        I suppose it just depends on the situation.

        CCW owners can in michigan have an exemption that allows them to carry in
        locations they normally can't such as bars, theaters, and sport venues.

        I know we have lockers in the Courthouse where I work security, for officers to leave their weapons when they visit the court house, but since this is handled by the court security officers, (U.S. Marshal service) I don't have to worry about it.

        As far as the skill of the security guard in doing a search, I was taught to use the scrunchie search method, not a simple pat-down, so if I search you, I am going to find the gun and how much change you have in your pocket.
        but, at a public venue, you need to push thru more than 12 people an hour so that method is right out.

        But yep, if you are a law enforcement officer and you are not on duty when you show up, you may be asked to not bring your gun onto the premises. That is within the rights of the business. Of course, if they don't search you and you don't tell them, how are they gonna know?

        Comment


        • #19
          Property rights do trump other laws in cases like this, they can always ask you to leave, BUT there are restrictions based on whether the proerty is open to the public or not.

          We went through this down here in Texas 2 years ago and as a result the law was amended:

          From Texas Penal Code Chapter 30 (regarding Criminal Tresspass in General, and by a civilian CCW holder in particular)
          ยง 30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS. (a) A person commits an
          offense if he enters or remains on or in property, including an
          aircraft or other vehicle, of another without effective consent or
          he enters or remains in a building of another without effective
          consent and he:
          (1) had notice that the entry was forbidden; or
          (2) received notice to depart but failed to do so.
          -----
          (SNIP)
          -----
          Text of subsec. (g) as added by Acts 2005, 79th Leg., ch. 1093.
          (g) This section does not apply if:
          (1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or
          in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun or other
          weapon was forbidden
          ;
          and
          (2) the actor at the time of the offense was a peace
          officer, including a commissioned peace officer of a recognized
          state, or a special investigator under Article 2.122, Code of
          Criminal Procedure, regardless of whether the peace officer or
          special investigator was engaged in the actual discharge of an
          official duty
          while carrying the weapon.
          (The above is 30.05. 30.06 is specifically for CCW holders only, doesn't apply to peace officers).

          The property owner can always ask you to leave if you are carrying a weapon off duty, but it's not a crime to do so even if the "no-handgun" signs are posted. Being a Commisioned Peace Officer (inculding a commisioned peace officer from another state or one of the recognized Federal Investigators in the CCP, this section was added after LEOSA became law so anyone allowed to carry under LEOSA is covered by this) confers some special rights on the Commision holder.
          Last edited by Black Caesar; 09-15-2007, 12:47 AM.
          ~Black Caesar~
          Corbier's Commandos

          " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

          Comment


          • #20
            In Washington, the Peace Officer status allows you to carry into a liquor serving establishment, yes. However; if you are an off duty peace officer and asked to leave or asked not to bring your firearm inside, you are no longer falling under the peace officer exemption, but instead under the rights of the property owner to restrict service. If you decide to tell a property owner to "pound sand" and would have walked in there anyway you would be liable to be arrested for Criminal Trespass. If you are an on-duty peace officer, that is different as you are entering under the color of law and in the performance of your duties. While off-duty, having a badge and comm card doesn't give you any exemptions from property owner wishes. The only exemption it gives you is that you will not be arrested for violating the Firearms Restricted Areas law.
            "Alright guys listen up, ya'll have probably heard this before, Jackson vs. Securiplex corporation; I am a private security officer, I have no State or governmental authority. I stand as an ordinary citizen. I have no right to; detain, interrogate or otherwise interfere with your personal property-... basically all that means is I'm a cop."-Officer Ernie
            "The Curve" 1998

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by LPGuy View Post
              Now that I've got that rant out of my system... Yes, I understand that the venue was private property and that the owner can restrict firearm possession inside if that's his choice. But really.. use some common sense. There was really no purpose to this post except to say that I really hope no one here is "that guy" when it comes to similar situations.
              Mmm, if I had to place a bet on this, I would lay some money on Black Ceasar. As it is, he seems to be the only one who understood this post, at all.

              It was one of those posts where one of us was just trying to get something off his chest. His "experience" with a particular s/o had rubbed him wrong. And what the hell do we do? We start whining and griping. Why? Because, he is a cop... Trying to Bash on some poor ole s/o. I said, bashing, based on everyone's defensive postures and responses, that's how it was taken. Everyone, started educating the cop on CCW laws, and procedures at private venues.... except for a good laugh involving Hoover, this was a head scratcher to read.

              And some of still wonder why we just kinda MIGHT have issues with the PO-LICE... I wonder why...

              It was just a rant, let the guy get something off his chest... sheesh.
              ~Super Ninja Sniper~
              Corbier's Commandos

              Nemo me impune lacessit

              Grammical and Spelling errors may occur form time to time. Yoov bin worned

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              • #22
                Originally posted by ValleyOne View Post
                It was just a rant, let the guy get something off his chest... sheesh.
                I can understand that, but this is a discussion forum, not a blog. If you post stuff here expect people to discuss it and pick it apart if they so feel the need. Ive had my posts picked apart and I'm sure just about everyone else here has as well. In the end I think we all end up learning something or another from following discussions.
                "Alright guys listen up, ya'll have probably heard this before, Jackson vs. Securiplex corporation; I am a private security officer, I have no State or governmental authority. I stand as an ordinary citizen. I have no right to; detain, interrogate or otherwise interfere with your personal property-... basically all that means is I'm a cop."-Officer Ernie
                "The Curve" 1998

                Comment


                • #23
                  I looked at the RCW and it's confusing to me. I did find this part interesting:

                  RCW Firearms law

                  (1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon:
                  ----
                  SNIP
                  ----
                  (6) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

                  (a) A person engaged in military activities sponsored by the federal or state governments, while engaged in official duties;

                  (b) Law enforcement personnel, except that subsection (1)(b) of this section does apply to a law enforcement officer who is present at a courthouse building as a party to an action under chapter 10.14, 10.99, or 26.50 RCW, or an action under Title 26 RCW where any party has alleged the existence of domestic violence as defined in RCW 26.50.010; or

                  (c) Security personnel while engaged in official duties.
                  It's vague, it says noting baout the duty status of "law enforcement personell" but does say it about S/Os. perhaps Washington State will go through the same clarification process Texas went through 2 years ago. until then It's probably anyone's guess.
                  ~Black Caesar~
                  Corbier's Commandos

                  " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by BHR Lawson View Post
                    In Washington, the Peace Officer status allows you to carry into a liquor serving establishment, yes. However; if you are an off duty peace officer and asked to leave or asked not to bring your firearm inside, you are no longer falling under the peace officer exemption, but instead under the rights of the property owner to restrict service. If you decide to tell a property owner to "pound sand" and would have walked in there anyway you would be liable to be arrested for Criminal Trespass. If you are an on-duty peace officer, that is different as you are entering under the color of law and in the performance of your duties. While off-duty, having a badge and comm card doesn't give you any exemptions from property owner wishes. The only exemption it gives you is that you will not be arrested for violating the Firearms Restricted Areas law.
                    Ah, so it is like the Texas law somewhat.

                    It's a semantic differance, but here in Texas a property owner with a property open to the public can't ask an off duty LEO to leave because he's carrying a gun, BUT he can ask anyone to leave without giving any reason at all. If you are a property owner then, it's best to just say "leave", not "leave because i dont' want guns here" lol.
                    Last edited by Black Caesar; 09-15-2007, 01:12 AM.
                    ~Black Caesar~
                    Corbier's Commandos

                    " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Black Caesar View Post
                      Ah, so it is like the Texas law somewhat.

                      It's a semantic differance, but here in Texas a property owner with a property open to the public can't ask an off duty LEO to leave because he's carrying a gun, BUT he can ask anyone to leave without giving any reason at all. If you are a property owner then, it's best to just say "leave", not "leave because i dont' want guns here" lol.
                      Hm, that may be the same way here. All I know is off-duty cops dont get to trump a property owner's right to say "No you cannot come in here." While On-duty you can.

                      I used to work for a company that told us that if the police were on sites that were not open to the public (such as construction sites) and were not responding to a call, we were to ask them to leave. Um... yeah... no.
                      "Alright guys listen up, ya'll have probably heard this before, Jackson vs. Securiplex corporation; I am a private security officer, I have no State or governmental authority. I stand as an ordinary citizen. I have no right to; detain, interrogate or otherwise interfere with your personal property-... basically all that means is I'm a cop."-Officer Ernie
                      "The Curve" 1998

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I think I've already pretty well stated that I thoroughly understand private property rights under Washington State law, and I also thoroughly understand both CCW and law enforcement carry rights. If anyone wants to continue to split hairs on that, be my guest. However, I CAN ignore posted signs prohibiting firearms carry because they are nothing more than that: a sign. I will not be arrested for violating a CCW carry restriction because I'm not subject to such restrictions, and I will not be arrested for criminal trespass either, because my sworn status authorizes me to carry almost anywhere in the state. There is no RCW that prohibits carrying where a sign restricts firearms carry. The most that can happen is that the property owner can ask me to leave, and I'll abide by his wishes. That generally won't happen anyways, because I don't make a habit of advertising the fact that I'm armed.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by LPGuy View Post
                          It is against the law to carry a firearm into an alcohol establishment in Washington State for a normal citizen. Police officers, whether on- or off-duty, are exempt from that law. We may carry into a bar anytime we wish. The property owner could always ask an off-duty officer to leave, provided that the off-duty officer is not performing an official police duty. Since I understood that this was the owner's right, I didn't make a big deal of it, despite how ridiculous it is.
                          When I worked in night clubs I would always have off duty officers come in with their weapons. I ALWAYS told them to take the weapon back out to the car. I even had an officer go back outside and come back in with his weapon still on. He didn't get to come into the bar at all that night.

                          Its not you we are worried about, when we ask you to take you weapon back to the car. Its the few hundred other idiots in the bar that we are worried about. If some on rubs up against you and feels it, you gun that is, and freaks out and comes and tells us. We are going to have to local police flooding the place to find you. There is no reason to have a gun in a bar unless you are offical business and it doesn't matter if you are drinking or not.
                          "You gotta look like Rico Suave, Think like Einstein and, only if that fails...fight like Tyson." -Dougo83's FTO

                          Me- "Should we call the police?" My FTO- "Justin, here, we are the police. Go get em."

                          Originally posted by Black Caesar
                          some people just need killin!!!!! (Or Tasing, or pepper spraying or whatever).

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Quote from JSAM21, "There is no reason to have a gun in a bar unless you are offical business and it doesn't matter if you are drinking or not."

                            I believe self defense is a great reason to have a pistol anywhere. We all know that dirtbags rob bars, assault people in bars, and shoot people in bars. Now, most of my bar days are over, however, when I do go to a the local pub to meet a few friends, I bring my pistol unless I plan of drinking anything harder than soda.

                            Personally, if my pistol is not welcome, I don't consider myself welcome. So far the only places I haven't been allowed to carry are Disney Land (they provide gun lockers) and a concert stadium. Other than those places, I've never been asked to lock my pistol up, or asked not to bring it into a facility. The facilities include all the local professional sports arenas/stadiums, and Marine World.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              There's an argument to be made, there. If you are carrying it for personal defense, why do you get to when no other citizen may?

                              That's the thing, though. You're either carrying it as a symbol of office, or you're doing what everyone else carries one for: Self Defense and Defense of Others.
                              Some Kind of Commando Leader

                              "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
                                There's an argument to be made, there. If you are carrying it for personal defense, why do you get to when no other citizen may?
                                Because (#1) no other (class of) citizen has an affirmative duty to act when the shooting starts (at least in my state, "Good Samaritans" are not obligated to put themselves in danger, peace officers are, even off duty) and (#2) other citizens (including the vast majority of private citizens employed in private security and protection) are unlikely to run into someone that had their freedom pert near revoked based on your actions.

                                Personally I don't have a problem with private citizens being able to carry where I can IF they are willing to:

                                -Spend a week in a firearms familiarization course

                                And after that

                                -Go to the range for practice and instruction every other weekend for 9 months (I was in the "reserve" academy that took 9 and 3/4ths months so we could spread it out like that, the "regular" academy cadets only went for 5 months so they had to go every friggin Saturday)

                                -Go to a "shoot house" and score a 70% and then have to score a 90% on the static gun range just to graduate

                                And then

                                -have to requalify every 6 calendar months (my department goes every 3 months, the State requirement s only bi-annually)

                                AND finally

                                -have to be bonded by the State (or I guess If this kind of "enhanced" personal carry thing were to happen for private citizens, then private insurance would do the trick) in case something happens where the shooter is Liable.

                                (OR the person presents proof that they are a recently separated ex-military service member who had a combat or military police occupation or specialty and they show a proficiency record in hand guns no more than 3 years old.)......

                                THEN I have no problem with people who aren't peace officers carrying where I can carry (with an "ENHANCED" CCL). BUT as long as the CCW license class is one day (here in Texas, longer in other places, way shorter in others) then no, other people shouldn't be able to carry the same as I do (ie in Gun Free zones, their are only a handful of places where I can't legally carry).

                                Their are something like 17,000 accidental firearms discharges every year in this country that result in death or injury, very very very few occur to people with military or police backgrounds (i'm looking for that stats page, it was either the NRA or someone like that that printed those stacks 2 or 3 years ago, someone help me out if you've seen it, it mentions how the lack of firearms education has made society less safe). The laws exist the way they do(in part) in the hope that untrained people won't find be in a position to hurt others.
                                Last edited by Black Caesar; 09-17-2007, 09:02 AM.
                                ~Black Caesar~
                                Corbier's Commandos

                                " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

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