Don't be this guy (rant)

[LPGuy]

So I went up to a (left unnamed) Seattle concert venue tonight to watch several local bands play, one of which is my best friends' band. As usual, I'm carrying my concealed duty weapon along with my badge and commission card. At the front door, I notice several security officers glancing in bags and "frisking" the males. I step up and receive the absolute worst "frisk" in the world: the officer pats my front two pockets and lets me by.

After my friends play, I walk back outside to talk with them and get some fresh air. After a few minutes, I realize I need to grab a few dollars cash from the ATM inside to pay for parking. I walk back in the front door and wave my ticket stub and I'm stopped for a second frisk. This time, the security officer pats down my side and stops at my waist when he feels my holstered pistol. I immediately protect my weapon with my strong hand and show him my badge and commission card with my off hand, notifying him that I'm a police officer.

The security officer says, "Uh, hold on one second while I ask my manager if that's okay." I wait a minute until I'm summoned outside by a second security officer who asks, "I understand that you're carrying a firearm." I say, "Yes, I'm a police officer," as I show him my badge.

He studies it for a second and then says, "Yeah, that's nice, but you can't bring that in here." I stare at him blankly for a moment and then say, "I need to come in and use your ATM and then I'm leaving." He says something about whether or not I've seen something "in the papers lately" and says "Absolutely not, unless you want to leave it somewhere."

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

I repeat that I need to use the ATM only and he again answers, "Absolutely not" and shakes his head. Too heated at this point, I turned away without a further response and re-joined my friends outside the front door. I notice that the security manager takes up a leaning position upon the wall inside the front door to keep an eye on us now.

Now that I've got that rant out of my system... Yes, I understand that the venue was private property and that the owner can restrict firearm possession inside if that's his choice. But really.. use some common sense. There was really no purpose to this post except to say that I really hope no one here is "that guy" when it comes to similar situations.

[N. A. Corbier]

Honestly...

If its private property, with no weapons on the post, and you are not an on duty law enforcement officer with a police need to be there... He is in his right to deny you access, and may actually lose his job if he doesn't.

Now, the whole first frisk thing is pretty standard in venues from guys who don't know how to frisk. 9 times out of 10, they're not trained in searching at all.

Just tonight, I got to wand about 200 people. I was not to care what set the wand off, only searching for a specific item. It was not weapons, so for those who's weapons set off my wand, they were told I didn't care.

I am trained in both wand usage and actual pat down searches. Which made some people angry because it wasn't the once over with the wand, and every "beep" (Well, it sounded like a dying cat screeching) was investigated and its source determined.

I think too many screeners are told to get the people in, and don't worry about screening them. When you do it right, it takes a few moments, and it slows people down.

[Black Caesar]

So I went up to a (left unnamed) Seattle concert venue tonight to watch several local bands play, one of which is my best friends' band. As usual, I'm carrying my concealed duty weapon along with my badge and commission card. At the front door, I notice several security officers glancing in bags and "frisking" the males. I step up and receive the absolute worst "frisk" in the world: the officer pats my front two pockets and lets me by.

After my friends play, I walk back outside to talk with them and get some fresh air. After a few minutes, I realize I need to grab a few dollars cash from the ATM inside to pay for parking. I walk back in the front door and wave my ticket stub and I'm stopped for a second frisk. This time, the security officer pats down my side and stops at my waist when he feels my holstered pistol. I immediately protect my weapon with my strong hand and show him my badge and commission card with my off hand, notifying him that I'm a police officer.

The security officer says, "Uh, hold on one second while I ask my manager if that's okay." I wait a minute until I'm summoned outside by a second security officer who asks, "I understand that you're carrying a firearm." I say, "Yes, I'm a police officer," as I show him my badge.

He studies it for a second and then says, "Yeah, that's nice, but you can't bring that in here." I stare at him blankly for a moment and then say, "I need to come in and use your ATM and then I'm leaving." He says something about whether or not I've seen something "in the papers lately" and says "Absolutely not, unless you want to leave it somewhere."

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

I repeat that I need to use the ATM only and he again answers, "Absolutely not" and shakes his head. Too heated at this point, I turned away without a further response and re-joined my friends outside the front door. I notice that the security manager takes up a leaning position upon the wall inside the front door to keep an eye on us now.

Now that I've got that rant out of my system... Yes, I understand that the venue was private property and that the owner can restrict firearm possession inside if that's his choice. But really.. use some common sense. There was really no purpose to this post except to say that I really hope no one here is "that guy" when it comes to similar situations.

Been there bro, and so have a lot of LEOs. Like This guy.

I've only encounterd that problem Twice.

Once, while going to a Dallas Mavericks game. But I called ahead to see what the procedure was and was told that I would be able to secure my weapon in the Dallas Police substation there at the Arena.

Well, when my Dad and I got their we waited in line, and when I got to the front of the line I showed my badge and ID to the (uniformed, contract) S/O , just to be told "that don't matter partner, you can't come in here with that". I explained to him that I'd called ahead and he starts to get a little louder. I step out of line and ask to see his supervisor (I couldn't take my weapon anywhere else if I wanted to, to avoid the traffic my dad and I road the light rail to the game, so I didn't have a trunk to put it in). His section of the line isn't moving the whole time. I hear him say "there's a cop here who wants to come in with his gun but he ain't in no uniform" just as loud as all get out.......

2 minutes later the (in-house) Security supervisor arrives and the 1st thing he does is apologise to me right their in front of the S/O and walks me and my dad through the gate.. The S/O looked up breifly and says "my bad dawg" and thats it. I was miffed, but hey, I fugure no one told the S/O at the gate,, maybe he was new, whatever so I didn't make too big a deal.
--

But the SECOND time something like that happened (which is really a different story, public property, the only simularity is that I had to deal with another contract S/O) REALLY made my blood boil, because the second time made no sense at all.

I've been to the Lew Sterret Justice Center many times before, delivering my prisoners to the Jail or having to go to court at the Crowley court House Building conected to it. No big deal.

Well, my wife got a ticket a couple weeks prior. We only had one car so she picked me up from work that day and Lew Sterret is only 5 blocks from Campus so we decide to go pay the ticket (she'd already had defensive driving class, she just had to pay the court fee really). I'm IN UNIFORM with the word Police plastered across my back, both shoulders and may badge. My wife walks through the metal detector at the front door and I wait till she walks through before I ask the S/O (and i swear to God I'm telling the truth, the guy had like maybe 4 top teeth, don't know if he had any bottoms) if it's alright if I walk around to keep from setting off the alarm. He asked for my ID. No prob, I hand it to him. Then he asks who i work for (while holding my badge/ID case) So i tell him, nicely, because i know he dosen't make much money and I didn't want anyone to be a A-hole to me while i was doing my job.

Then he says and I'm quoting here: "you have to leave your gun in your car, you can't carry a gun here unless you work this post". Post? I say " I'm sorry, but you're mistaken, I'm a cop, I can carry in the public areas, just not down in the detention areas". I used to WORK THERE for cripes sake. He still refuses me entry. I ask for a supervisor and he says "I AM THE SUPWERVISOR".

To avoid a scene I go back outside and wait for my wife, I'm just not going to argue with this jerkoff. While I'm waiting a deputy sheriff I know (we worked together back in the day as DSOs in the jail) walks up and we start talkiing. He fairly flipped out when I told him the S/O wouldn't let me in. I told him don't worry about it, I'm off duty and it's no big deal, but he marched me right threw the door up to the S/O and asked him why he didn't let me in.

Poor SOB, I started to feel sorry for him, because he knew he was in trouble, and I really didn't want the guy to get in any trouble (despite him being a jerkoff ), but the Security supervisor (an in-house County Security Lt.) walked by just then. When my wife and I were leaving I noticed a new S/O was at the door. Never saw him again so I figure he got pulled.
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Most people will be reasonable, and even if they aren't we shouldn't stoop to their level and argue, but damn it's annoying. I feel your pain LP

[Just_Some_Guy]

He says something about whether or not I've seen something "in the papers lately"

http://www.komotv.com/news/9681107.html

Authorities say one of the more serious violations occurred at a club in the Belltown area, where security staff allegedly allowed an undercover officer armed with a firearm to enter the premises.

There's your reason why the manager wouldn't let you on property. He probably read/saw this and figured you might've been one of those undercover officers. If the venue was serving alcohol, then he had a really big reason not to let you in, police officer or not.

I believe this situation was handled appropriately by the S/O. I would glad to be "that guy".

[Black Caesar]

http://www.komotv.com/news/9681107.html



There's your reason why the manager wouldn't let you on property. He probably read/saw this and figured you might've been one of those undercover officers. If the venue was serving alcohol, then he had a really big reason not to let you in, police officer or not.

I believe this situation was handled appropriately by the S/O. I would glad to be "that guy".

Allowing a firearm in a bar is a crime up there? wow.

[LPGuy]

If its private property, with no weapons on the post, and you are not an on duty law enforcement officer with a police need to be there... He is in his right to deny you access, and may actually lose his job if he doesn't.

There's your reason why the manager wouldn't let you on property. He probably read/saw this and figured you might've been one of those undercover officers. If the venue was serving alcohol, then he had a really big reason not to let you in, police officer or not.

I believe this situation was handled appropriately by the S/O. I would glad to be "that guy".

It was not handled appropriately. I was not an undercover police officer; I was an off-duty officer. I displayed proper identification (badge and commission card). Police officers are legally authorized to carry a firearm into any bar or alcohol establishment, both on- and off-duty, in the State of Washington.

It makes a little more sense now that perhaps the security misunderstood and thought I was performing a compliance check--but in those cases, the undercover officers don't immediately identify themselves as officers.

[bigshotceo]

It was not handled appropriately. I was not an undercover police officer; I was an off-duty officer. I displayed proper identification (badge and commission card). Police officers are legally authorized to carry a firearm into any bar or alcohol establishment, both on- and off-duty, in the State of Washington.

It makes a little more sense now that perhaps the security misunderstood and thought I was performing a compliance check--but in those cases, the undercover officers don't immediately identify themselves as officers.

By "legally authorized" do you mean that a) there's simply no law against them letting you bring the firearm in or b) they're not allowed by law to prevent you from bringing in the firearm?

If the answer is a) it's somewhat understandable. Police officer or not, sometimes people make stupid decisions and when they've got a gun those decisions don't always end well. Granted, most POs are good people who are able to control themselves and not get into a bad decision, but they're nevertheless human beings. As a result, the policy may make sense. As well, it may be at least partially for insurance reasons. Either way, "that guy" was simply doing his job.

[N. A. Corbier]

I know of no state that prohibits a property owner from barring entry to an off-duty law enforcement officer not performing police duties.

[Hank1]

Any Owner/Manager can bar anyone in to their establisment. Regardless who one may be. Unless of cousre they are paying a visit in a official capacity.

Be safe,

Hank

[SecTrainer]

I know of no state that prohibits a property owner from barring entry to an off-duty law enforcement officer not performing police duties.

...nor are there any states that prohibit a property owner from defining what is considered to be "contraband" on his property. Naturally, such a policy needs to be enforced uniformly to be legally defensible.

If I have a superstitious horror of green socks (a gypsy told me once that someone wearing green socks would murder me), I can declare, perfectly legally, that no one shall be permitted to enter my property while wearing green socks. If J. Edgar Hoover himself arose from the grave wearing chartreuse nylons (fishnet, of course)and floated up to my door wanting to use my phone to make a date with Oscar Wilde, I am entitled to tell him to float off.

[Ron Jessee]

slice o' fried gold,Trainer lol

I think it's the lack of any actual slection on top a lack of training on top of a lack of post orders.

[Hank1]

...nor are there any states that prohibit a property owner from defining what is considered to be "contraband" on his property. Naturally, such a policy needs to be enforced uniformly to be legally defensible.

If I have a superstitious horror of green socks (a gypsy told me once that someone wearing green socks would murder me), I can declare, perfectly legally, that no one shall be permitted to enter my property while wearing green socks. If J. Edgar Hoover himself arose from the grave wearing chartreuse nylons (fishnet, of course)and floated up to my door wanting to use my phone to make a date with Oscar Wilde, I am entitled to tell him to float off.

Now that is classic.....LOL

[Bill Warnock]

Somehow some way regardless of when, Mel Brooks has just got to put that into one of his parodies. That is as good as it gets. But that ranks second only to one of my NCO instructors at the Air Police Academy who after explaining and reexplaining what search and seizure meant in military v. cilivian environment finally got through to one of guys who was struggling and stated with an absolute straight face, "See it isn't hard ... (that means a slight pause) no, that's what she said." We all doubled over with laughter.
SecTrainer, I really got a belly laugh from yours. I agree with other members of the forum who commented, that was classic!
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[LPGuy]

By "legally authorized" do you mean that a) there's simply no law against them letting you bring the firearm in or b) they're not allowed by law to prevent you from bringing in the firearm?

It is against the law to carry a firearm into an alcohol establishment in Washington State for a normal citizen. Police officers, whether on- or off-duty, are exempt from that law. We may carry into a bar anytime we wish. The property owner could always ask an off-duty officer to leave, provided that the off-duty officer is not performing an official police duty. Since I understood that this was the owner's right, I didn't make a big deal of it, despite how ridiculous it is.

[SecTrainer]

It is against the law to carry a firearm into an alcohol establishment in Washington State for a normal citizen. Police officers, whether on- or off-duty, are exempt from that law. We may carry into a bar anytime we wish. The property owner could always ask an off-duty officer to leave, provided that the off-duty officer is not performing an official police duty. Since I understood that this was the owner's right, I didn't make a big deal of it, despite how ridiculous it is.

While police officers are exempt from the specific law to which you refer, there is a big difference between "must" and "may". NO police officer (who is not in performance of his official duties under the authority of a warrant or special "warrantless" situations) may arbitrarily contravene or extinguish an owner's property rights, including his right to exclude ANY persons or ANY contraband as he sees fit. The constitutionally-derived property and privacy rights will always trump any state statute in this regard, especially when it comes to agents of the state.

So, even if the type of property is not named in the CCW law as a "no-carry" property (bars, schools, etc.) - such as, for instance, a mall - the owner of that property has the right to permit OR to exclude ALL weapons from the property carried by any persons, including (perhaps even especially including) a police officer who is not on duty or engaged in performance of his duty.

With respect to properties named as "no-carry", the owner MUST exclude weapons carried by non-LEO's and MAY also exclude those carried by off-duty LEO's if he so chooses. There is absolutely nothing in RCW that requires him to permit the weapon carried by an off-duty LEO. An LEO can carry his weapon anywhere legally, but that is not to say that he MAY carry it, and he certainly MAY NOT do so in the face of a property owner's objections, providing the owner is not attempting to disarm an officer who is engaged in the performance of his duty.

Police officers enjoy absolutely no special powers to contravene individual constitutional rights, and in fact come under even greater obligation than the "ordinary citizen" to be certain that they do not do so. So if you're an LEO off-duty who's packing and you come onto my property, you and/or your gun are going elsewhere if I'm the one in legal control of the property and I tell you to vamoose. And, as an agent of the state in danger of committing a constitutional violation of my rights (which a non-LEO would not be in danger of committing by delaying), you'd be well advised to make your departure pretty darned zippy, too.

When I was a cop, I attended a church where the minister took me aside one day and asked me very nicely not to carry my weapon to church. As it happened, I never had carried in church, but apparently a parishioner thought she saw a weapon under my sport coat (probably my pager - they were bigger in those days) and had mentioned it to him. Had it been my practice to carry "everywhere", as some cops feel they must do, I would have had no choice but to comply with the minister's request or find myself another church where the minister was more of a sportsman. I certainly could not have asserted any authority as an LEO to contravene his privilege in this regard.