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  • Hank1
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Caesar View Post
    Me personally, I (obviously) don't see a problem with Hybrid solutions in either direction within reasonable bounds. What works works, and sometimes, as much as some of y'all hate to admit it, a cop works best in a certain situation. Other times you need S/O. And then sometimes you need people who wear both hats like me...

    I completely agree with BC with regard to hybridization (that a word?). I have dealt with individuals with numerous outstanding warrants. A call to local LE was made and confirmed through LE. They send Officers/Deputies and the subject wants to leave before LE arrives (subject has no clue). Therefore, he/she is free to leave. And all I can do is watch them leave........All the while thinking " If only..."
    Last edited by Hank1; 09-05-2007, 05:40 PM.

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  • Black Caesar
    replied
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
    The State of Florida cannot involve themselves in civil matters between tenants and landlord. They may enforce criminal laws, yes. But when the State of Florida, the Government, tells you that you have the wrong color blinds, this blurs the line of between private citizen (the corporation) and the government (a sworn LEO in full uniform.)

    Law Enforcement Officers in Florida, when off duty, still wear their police uniforms, and are still representatives of the government. Which means that the government is enforcing civil contract between landlord and tenant.

    That's the whole thing: The Government of the United States of America is now an agent of a private citizen, conducting its bidding in civil matters, with the full weight and authority of the Government.
    And what I'm saying is, that if that's somehow "wrong" then every private policeman and woman in the country is then likewise wrong. NC private police (for example) are sworn by a local government authority before they begin enforcing laws (and rules) on someone's private property. Is this not the same thing?

    What it boils down to (to me) is that the some on the private side of the equation what to have the cake and eat it too. Even some on this board seem to want S/Os to have authority above that of a normal citizen (evidenced by pushes in various places for greater S/O arrest authority and the ability to arrest for more than just felonies and breaches of the peace).

    Well, if "private" security is going to "meddle" in "public" safety and public emergency response, you've the got to accept the reverse, Off Duty and Private (and in some cases on duty and public) Law Enforcement "encroaching" on the private sector, heck it's simple Yin and Yang. If you don't want to split the private pie but instead want "clearly defined lines" between LE and "PriSec" (my new word for private security, spiffy ain't it ), well, that goes both ways, now doesn't it? Keep off the other guy's (public) patch if you want him off yours.

    Me personally, I (obviously) don't see a problem with Hybrid solutions in either direction within reasonable bounds. What works works, and sometimes, as much as some of y'all hate to admit it, a cop works best in a certain situation. Other times you need S/O. And then sometimes you need people who wear both hats like me...
    Last edited by Black Caesar; 09-05-2007, 04:55 PM.

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  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Was this the one that they were bitching "You guys can't control the property, and you can't stop cars" at gate houses built on public streets?

    Newsflash: Not even a law enforcement officer can stop a vehicle without PC on a public street and deny it entry.

    Some of these places always amuse me, having public streets and declaring themselves "gated communities," when its illegal to close the gates. (Interference with Right of Way.)

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  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Caesar View Post
    ???

    Are you saying a off-duty Florida cop can't enforce the rules of his off duty employer? Why (are off duty cops not considered agents of management?) And If so, then yep, still glad I'm in Texas.
    The State of Florida cannot involve themselves in civil matters between tenants and landlord. They may enforce criminal laws, yes. But when the State of Florida, the Government, tells you that you have the wrong color blinds, this blurs the line of between private citizen (the corporation) and the government (a sworn LEO in full uniform.)

    Law Enforcement Officers in Florida, when off duty, still wear their police uniforms, and are still representatives of the government. Which means that the government is enforcing civil contract between landlord and tenant.

    That's the whole thing: The Government of the United States of America is now an agent of a private citizen, conducting its bidding in civil matters, with the full weight and authority of the Government.

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  • Hank1
    replied
    In southeast Hillsborough County, we had a community that opted to go with LEOs at contract re-signing and even created a "sub-station" on property where the Deputies can write reports and patrol the community. They even moved 3 Deputies into the complex at a huge discounted rate. That lasted approximately 3 months at which time they rehired us. We spent the next solid month trying to get the community back under control.

    Be safe,

    Hank

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  • Black Caesar
    replied
    Originally posted by Minneapolis Security View Post


    That guy looks like he is about to turn to dust. Couldn't they have found a more suitable "field grade officer"? He looks like he should maybe be working a property room.
    He might be a bailiff or a Jail Deputy or something.

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  • Black Caesar
    replied
    Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
    When you have a toothache, you go to the dentist...not a proctologist. Sure, they're both called "Doctor" and they both wear white jackets, but they work at opposite ends of the digestive system, and you're just going to end up with some guy putting his sh1tty fingers in your mouth.
    Dentists and proctologists work on differant parts of the body. Cops and Security work on the same parts, like Optometrists and Ophthalmologists, just one does things a bit differantly.

    It's the reason Public Campus Police (and private company police like in NC, and private/quasi-public police forces elsewhere across the country) exists for example. Campus Security can enforce rules, but not laws (unless the law broken is a felony of breach of the peace). Campus police can enforce rules and laws. Both types have restrictions. The police have constitutional restrictions security doesn't (but these are lesser in schools, unlike colleges, which LPguy pointed out a little while back), but security has other restrictions that that the police can get by because of Qualified Immunity.

    An minor example in Texas is that a S/O pulling a gun on somone when there is no justifiable reason to shoot can be charged with Assault, but a police officer can legally threaten the use of Deadly force (ie point a firearm at someone) even when there is no justification (you just can't use deadly force in that case). Not that it's a good idea to point a weapon and something you don't want to destroy, just pointing out a "capability" differance.

    I think Lawson said it right, there is no perfect solution, which is why both solutions (EDIT: and hybrid/mixed solutions like off duty cops, private police ect ect) exist in the 1st place.
    Last edited by Black Caesar; 09-05-2007, 04:40 AM.

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  • Minneapolis Security
    replied


    That guy looks like he is about to turn to dust. Couldn't they have found a more suitable "field grade officer"? He looks like he should maybe be working a property room.

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  • Black Caesar
    replied
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post

    And, my favorite:
    Manager: Can you enforce my rules and regulations?
    Police: No, we can only enforce Florida law.
    Security: Yes, as agents of management, we may.
    ???

    Are you saying a off-duty Florida cop can't enforce the rules of his off duty employer? Why (are off duty cops not considered agents of management?) And If so, then yep, still glad I'm in Texas.

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  • Minneapolis Security
    replied
    Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post

    When you have a toothache, you go to the dentist...not a proctologist. Sure, they're both called "Doctor" and they both wear white jackets, but they work at opposite ends of the digestive system, and you're just going to end up with some guy putting his sh1tty fingers in your mouth.
    That is a great summary!

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  • SecTrainer
    replied
    Although it is very commonplace to hire "off-duty" cops for private duty, there are actually some very thorny constitutional/legal issues with this practice, especially when the cops are wearing the uniform of the police agency.

    1. When the power of government is sold to the highest bidder, as this article describes, we are promoting a system of differential law enforcement, with one system for the wealthy and another for the poor. This means that we are moving backward in time to the sort of policing that existed in England (...France, and elsewhere) before the time of Peel.

    2. Can the power of government legitimately be used to enforce private policy? Probably not.

    3. Even if the answer to #2 were "Yes", what happens when the private policy conflicts with the officer's sworn duty to enforce the law?

    4. Can the owner of private property, by inviting law enforcement onto that property, thereby unilaterally extinguish the constitutional rights of other citizens who are in legitimate possession and use of the property with a reasonable expectation of privacy from governmental intrusion?

    5. If the answer to #4 is "No, the owner cannot do so", then the official status of the police officer actually hinders him from providing security in the private space, because there are constitutional constraints on his movements and actions that do not apply to the security officer. How does this make the off-duty cop "more valuable" to the property owner than the security officer?

    We always get into trouble when we try to use a screwdriver as a hammer. Security is security, and law enforcement is law enforcement. However many times it is necessary to make this point, I will make it again: Security and law enforcement ARE NOT THE SAME THING. In fact, most cops aren't trained in security methods.

    When you have a toothache, you go to the dentist...not a proctologist. Sure, they're both called "Doctor" and they both wear white jackets, but they work at opposite ends of the digestive system, and you're just going to end up with some guy putting his sh1tty fingers in your mouth.
    Last edited by SecTrainer; 09-05-2007, 03:36 AM.

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  • EMTGuard
    replied
    Thanks for all the replies so far. Less keep them coming.

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  • Lawson
    replied
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
    I dislike when police try to "steal accounts" by saying that "We're the police, we can automatically do more." Since most clients are more concerned with protecting their property and residents, and not enforcing laws, there's little difference between a private citizen and a police officer.

    Even in Florida, that bastion of rules.

    Police: Well, you have kids who trespass and you can't catch em.
    Security: We remove them from the property. You arrest them.
    Manager: I don't care if they're arrested or not, they're out in an hour! I just want them gone!

    Police: We're trained police officers, we're armed, we can protect your residents.
    Security: We're also trained in protection, also armed, and already are protecting your residents.
    Manager: Why would I pay triple to have a cop out here when a guard can stop a fight the same way?

    Police: They have to call the police to do anything, we're already here.
    Manager: You have to call the police too, you better not leave my property to take some kid you arrested for littering to jail.

    And, my favorite:
    Manager: Can you enforce my rules and regulations?
    Police: No, we can only enforce Florida law.
    Security: Yes, as agents of management, we may.

    Manager: I had you cops before, you sat in your cars all night and didn't enforce any of my rules.
    The accounts police officers typically go for are not ones where a client is looking for "rule enforcement" it is where they are really looking for "law enforcement."

    That's why you dont see police officers sitting inside a lobby signing people in and out of the warehouse in the back. Police go for accounts that are typically such as malls, housing areas, etc... where they can perform duties that security guards cannot.

    A selling point is that even though you are paying for one cop, you are really, in essence, paying for the whole shift. If a security guard is having a problem, they call a supervisor. That supervisor may not even show up that day and will simply say, "Call the police" if need be. Then the security guard calls the police, talks to a call-taker, explains the situation to the call-taker, the call-taker decides if it warrants police involvement then sends it up to the dispatcher, the dispatcher prioritizes it amongst all the other calls and then puts it out. An LEO then takes the call, and may or may not respond immediately.

    A police officer keys up on the radio, "Adam 12, I need additional units" and there is a fleet of cops on the way.

    Say someone is on your site, tagging the walls and smashing out windows. Most security guards will call the police, talk to a call-taker, give information to a call taker... blah blah blah... a police officer keys up on his radio with info and the fleet of cops is on the way again.

    Say said tagger runs off. Most clients I know want them apprehended for identification, prosecution, and reparation. 9/10 security guards are going to have post orders or state laws that say, "Stop at the property line" while on the flipside the LEO can chase said bad guy all over the state.

    You hire a security guard and there is a suspicious person on property may be committing a crime... security guard says, "Hey let me talk to you" badguy says "f*** off" and leaves the property. Not a lot a guard can do. Police officer says "Hey let me talk to you" badguy says "f*** off" and ends up in handcuffs on an investigative detention.

    There's times when security is a better option, yet theres times when police officers are a better option. Neither is the end-all be-all.

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  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    I dislike when police try to "steal accounts" by saying that "We're the police, we can automatically do more." Since most clients are more concerned with protecting their property and residents, and not enforcing laws, there's little difference between a private citizen and a police officer.

    Even in Florida, that bastion of rules.

    Police: Well, you have kids who trespass and you can't catch em.
    Security: We remove them from the property. You arrest them.
    Manager: I don't care if they're arrested or not, they're out in an hour! I just want them gone!

    Police: We're trained police officers, we're armed, we can protect your residents.
    Security: We're also trained in protection, also armed, and already are protecting your residents.
    Manager: Why would I pay triple to have a cop out here when a guard can stop a fight the same way?

    Police: They have to call the police to do anything, we're already here.
    Manager: You have to call the police too, you better not leave my property to take some kid you arrested for littering to jail.

    And, my favorite:
    Manager: Can you enforce my rules and regulations?
    Police: No, we can only enforce Florida law.
    Security: Yes, as agents of management, we may.

    Manager: I had you cops before, you sat in your cars all night and didn't enforce any of my rules.

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  • Black Caesar
    replied
    Well others already said it, but yea, you're misreading some of the article.

    About the restof the "rant", to be honest I've always thought it's somewhat hypocritical for people who are in a for profit industry that gets paid for services provided to complain about others trying to make a profit based on what they can do.

    And complaining about the cost and what off duty cops are making? The Government Contract Security Officers at the Federal building across the street from me (of which I used to be one about 12 years ago) make more money than I do and cost more than I do, and the Contract Court Security Officers on the USMS over there make WAY more than the GCSOs and us. I don't spend my time worrying about what everyone else is making, I simply think "good for you" if they are making more and keep on moving.

    It's natrual to dislike competition, but sometimes that feeling can go too far. Your rant reminds me of how some cops view private security (as a threat). i think both extremes are silly.

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