Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Cost of Rent-A-Cops too much for some

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Cost of Rent-A-Cops too much for some

    East Baton Rouge Parish Sheriff’s Office Deputy Robert Buquoi talks on his radio during his off-duty patrol of Shenandoah Estates. Tom Hirschey, of the Shenandoah Estates Home Owners Association, recently had to cut Buquoi’s hours because Buquoi’s wage went up and association membership has not.

    From
    http://www.2theadvocate.com/news/pol...?showAll=y&c=y

    Competition for security hurts civic groups
    By KIMBERLY VETTER
    Advocate staff writer
    Published: Sep 4, 2007 - Page: 1A

    Catching speeders is how East Baton Rouge Parish Sheriff’s Office Deputy Robert Buquoi spends most of his time during his off-duty patrols of Shenandoah Estates.

    “The people who live along Antioch right here call their street the ‘Antioch Dragway,’ ” Buquoi said. “We’re trying to change the name of that street for them.”

    Buquoi and another off-duty deputy patrol the south Baton Rouge subdivision 66 hours a month for $25 an hour, said Tom Hirschey, who is in charge of security for the Shenandoah Estates Home Owners Association.

    The association used to hire six deputies for 96 hours at $20 an hour, the minimum pay off-duty deputies and police officers can make, Hirschey said.

    But a steady increase in competition for the deputies’ work and a lack of additional association revenue forced him to cut security services.

    “I can’t afford any more hours,” Hirschey said, adding that some entities are paying close to $50 an hour for off-duty law enforcement services.

    “It’s good for the officers and deputies, but it’s creating problems for us.”

    Tom Juneau, head of Kenilworth Civic Association’s security committee, is facing the same problem.

    Juneau said he has to limit the number of hours a private security guard works because of finances. The security guard works 12 hours a week, he said, adding he would like to be able to hire him for 20 hours per week.

    If civic association membership does not grow, Hirschey and Juneau said, they will have to cut security services even more.

    To get people to pay, the men are looking at creating a crime prevention district, an option that has worked for some subdivisions but not others.

    A crime prevention district is a political subdivision designed to prevent crime through methods such as environmental design, education and off-duty patrols.

    Legislators and people living within a district’s boundaries must approve a district before it’s created. If approved, residents in the district are charged a parcel fee and a board of commissioners decides how that money is spent.

    Philip Mayeux, past president of the Wedgewood Civic Association, spearheaded the creation of the Wedgewood crime prevention district, which 69 percent of voters within the district approved last year.

    The district’s commissioners plan on using district funds to hire more off-duty police officers, Mayeux said.

    Currently, two officers patrol the subdivision 25 hours a month. By February, Mayeux said, the district should be able to hire an additional officer and increase their hours to a total of 25 a week.

    “I don’t see the cons,” Mayeux said of the district. “Once we have the officers on the street I don’t think I’ll be able to find a person who voted against this effort.”

    Karen Lee, president of the Hermitage Homeowners Association, is not as optimistic about the South Burbank Crime Prevention and Development District.

    Formed in 2004, the district’s boundaries are Gardere Lane at Bayou Fountain Avenue, Nicholson Drive, Burbank Drive and Elbow Bayou.

    Homeowners living within the district pay $100 a year and condominium owners pay $25 per unit, said Lee, a member of the crime district’s 11-member board of commissioners.

    The fees are used to pay for things such as security guards, background checks, lighting and fences, all of which benefit people living in apartments and condominiums but not homes, Lee said.

    “Why should we have to pay for background checks,” she said. “I don’t like the fact that homeowners are being charged for services that benefit multi-family households.”

    Another problem with the district, Lee said, is that the commissioners have only met once and even then only five of the 11 showed up.

    “There are many things that haven’t been done that have hindered the progress of this district,” she said.

    Regardless of a district’s potential problems, Juneau said, he and other Kenilworth association members will try for the second time this legislative session to create one.

    “We need to get one so we can cover the area well,” he said, adding that less than 50 percent of subdivision residents are bearing the cost of association services.

    The situation is similar in Shenandoah Estates. As of June, 864 of 2,100 homeowners were paying association members, Hirschey said.

    One of the reasons why membership is low, Hirschey and Juneau said, is that some people believe they should not have to pay for services law enforcement officers already provide.

    Although the men said they understand this line of thinking, they do not agree with it.

    “Regardless of how much money and men and women you have, there always is going to be room for more,” Hirschey said.
    “And, what we are asking for is more tailored services.”

    Sheriff Greg Phares and Baton Rouge police spokesman Cpl. L’Jean McKneely said they wish they had enough people to saturate every neighborhood in the parish.

    “In the best of all possible worlds we would,” Phares said. “But that would be a large burden for taxpayers to bear.”
    Ok, first off, the use of the term "Private Security Guards" used by the homeowner association spokesman when he is referring to the Off-Duty deputies and police officers driving in department issue vehicles and wearing department issue uniforms while writing tickets and performing other various law enforcement duties while making more than $20 dollars an hour which is the minimum the officers are allowed to work for set by their departments which actually assign and coordinate the officers working those details. (deep inhale) In other words, RentaCops. They make a point of mentioning that the officers are writing tickets on their off duty time. In reality, they are on duty. They may not be working their regular assigned patrol shift but they are very much on duty. The department is getting paid for the officer to be there by a civic association instead of traditional taxes but this is still a law enforcement official, acting under color of law.
    Second, aren't there private security agencies which can do much the same job for less cost than the police are charging? I mean, upwards of $50 for a RentaCop to patrol your subdivision? DAMN. And here I am happy to be getting $10 an hour.
    Though it's not strictly security related I figured I'd post, rant some and see if a discussion starts from this.
    So, fire away everyone. I'm sitting back waiting to read what my fellow SOs have to say.
    Hospital Security Officer

  • #2
    They were quoting two different people from two different civic groups. One may hire off-duty deputies and the other may hire security officers. As far as security being able to provide the same services, no. The homeowner's association which is hiring the off-duty deputies said that they specifically have a problem with speeders on their streets, and they'd like extra traffic enforcement to help solve the problem.

    Comment


    • #3
      It's comparing apples and oranges. The one HOA has a main complaint of speeders, whereas the other HOA doesn't really specify what the concern is. However, 12 hours a week doesn't seem worth it at all. Then again, the problem could be only within a specified time-frame. Now, if this was in a state such as SC, that would be different as security officers can pull traffic and write for infractions. If I am not mistaken...

      The going rate out here for OD police is $30 - $50 an hour. You could POSSIBLY get an officer out for $20-$25, but don't expect much out of that officer, thats including showing up. Friend of mine gets $30 an hour to hangout at Mickey D's.
      "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

      Comment


      • #4
        Wow, that is one OLD cop.

        Around here, off-duty officers usually get between $40 and $60 an hour. When I was a copper, we were making $27 an hour off-duty...

        As a guard, I know the last company that had our contract was billing the .Gov at $52 an hour, an rumor has it the current one is at $32 an hour.

        Comment


        • #5
          Well others already said it, but yea, you're misreading some of the article.

          About the restof the "rant", to be honest I've always thought it's somewhat hypocritical for people who are in a for profit industry that gets paid for services provided to complain about others trying to make a profit based on what they can do.

          And complaining about the cost and what off duty cops are making? The Government Contract Security Officers at the Federal building across the street from me (of which I used to be one about 12 years ago) make more money than I do and cost more than I do, and the Contract Court Security Officers on the USMS over there make WAY more than the GCSOs and us. I don't spend my time worrying about what everyone else is making, I simply think "good for you" if they are making more and keep on moving.

          It's natrual to dislike competition, but sometimes that feeling can go too far. Your rant reminds me of how some cops view private security (as a threat). i think both extremes are silly.
          ~Black Caesar~
          Corbier's Commandos

          " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

          Comment


          • #6
            I dislike when police try to "steal accounts" by saying that "We're the police, we can automatically do more." Since most clients are more concerned with protecting their property and residents, and not enforcing laws, there's little difference between a private citizen and a police officer.

            Even in Florida, that bastion of rules.

            Police: Well, you have kids who trespass and you can't catch em.
            Security: We remove them from the property. You arrest them.
            Manager: I don't care if they're arrested or not, they're out in an hour! I just want them gone!

            Police: We're trained police officers, we're armed, we can protect your residents.
            Security: We're also trained in protection, also armed, and already are protecting your residents.
            Manager: Why would I pay triple to have a cop out here when a guard can stop a fight the same way?

            Police: They have to call the police to do anything, we're already here.
            Manager: You have to call the police too, you better not leave my property to take some kid you arrested for littering to jail.

            And, my favorite:
            Manager: Can you enforce my rules and regulations?
            Police: No, we can only enforce Florida law.
            Security: Yes, as agents of management, we may.

            Manager: I had you cops before, you sat in your cars all night and didn't enforce any of my rules.
            Some Kind of Commando Leader

            "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
              I dislike when police try to "steal accounts" by saying that "We're the police, we can automatically do more." Since most clients are more concerned with protecting their property and residents, and not enforcing laws, there's little difference between a private citizen and a police officer.

              Even in Florida, that bastion of rules.

              Police: Well, you have kids who trespass and you can't catch em.
              Security: We remove them from the property. You arrest them.
              Manager: I don't care if they're arrested or not, they're out in an hour! I just want them gone!

              Police: We're trained police officers, we're armed, we can protect your residents.
              Security: We're also trained in protection, also armed, and already are protecting your residents.
              Manager: Why would I pay triple to have a cop out here when a guard can stop a fight the same way?

              Police: They have to call the police to do anything, we're already here.
              Manager: You have to call the police too, you better not leave my property to take some kid you arrested for littering to jail.

              And, my favorite:
              Manager: Can you enforce my rules and regulations?
              Police: No, we can only enforce Florida law.
              Security: Yes, as agents of management, we may.

              Manager: I had you cops before, you sat in your cars all night and didn't enforce any of my rules.
              The accounts police officers typically go for are not ones where a client is looking for "rule enforcement" it is where they are really looking for "law enforcement."

              That's why you dont see police officers sitting inside a lobby signing people in and out of the warehouse in the back. Police go for accounts that are typically such as malls, housing areas, etc... where they can perform duties that security guards cannot.

              A selling point is that even though you are paying for one cop, you are really, in essence, paying for the whole shift. If a security guard is having a problem, they call a supervisor. That supervisor may not even show up that day and will simply say, "Call the police" if need be. Then the security guard calls the police, talks to a call-taker, explains the situation to the call-taker, the call-taker decides if it warrants police involvement then sends it up to the dispatcher, the dispatcher prioritizes it amongst all the other calls and then puts it out. An LEO then takes the call, and may or may not respond immediately.

              A police officer keys up on the radio, "Adam 12, I need additional units" and there is a fleet of cops on the way.

              Say someone is on your site, tagging the walls and smashing out windows. Most security guards will call the police, talk to a call-taker, give information to a call taker... blah blah blah... a police officer keys up on his radio with info and the fleet of cops is on the way again.

              Say said tagger runs off. Most clients I know want them apprehended for identification, prosecution, and reparation. 9/10 security guards are going to have post orders or state laws that say, "Stop at the property line" while on the flipside the LEO can chase said bad guy all over the state.

              You hire a security guard and there is a suspicious person on property may be committing a crime... security guard says, "Hey let me talk to you" badguy says "f*** off" and leaves the property. Not a lot a guard can do. Police officer says "Hey let me talk to you" badguy says "f*** off" and ends up in handcuffs on an investigative detention.

              There's times when security is a better option, yet theres times when police officers are a better option. Neither is the end-all be-all.
              "Alright guys listen up, ya'll have probably heard this before, Jackson vs. Securiplex corporation; I am a private security officer, I have no State or governmental authority. I stand as an ordinary citizen. I have no right to; detain, interrogate or otherwise interfere with your personal property-... basically all that means is I'm a cop."-Officer Ernie
              "The Curve" 1998

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks for all the replies so far. Less keep them coming.
                Hospital Security Officer

                Comment


                • #9
                  Although it is very commonplace to hire "off-duty" cops for private duty, there are actually some very thorny constitutional/legal issues with this practice, especially when the cops are wearing the uniform of the police agency.

                  1. When the power of government is sold to the highest bidder, as this article describes, we are promoting a system of differential law enforcement, with one system for the wealthy and another for the poor. This means that we are moving backward in time to the sort of policing that existed in England (...France, and elsewhere) before the time of Peel.

                  2. Can the power of government legitimately be used to enforce private policy? Probably not.

                  3. Even if the answer to #2 were "Yes", what happens when the private policy conflicts with the officer's sworn duty to enforce the law?

                  4. Can the owner of private property, by inviting law enforcement onto that property, thereby unilaterally extinguish the constitutional rights of other citizens who are in legitimate possession and use of the property with a reasonable expectation of privacy from governmental intrusion?

                  5. If the answer to #4 is "No, the owner cannot do so", then the official status of the police officer actually hinders him from providing security in the private space, because there are constitutional constraints on his movements and actions that do not apply to the security officer. How does this make the off-duty cop "more valuable" to the property owner than the security officer?

                  We always get into trouble when we try to use a screwdriver as a hammer. Security is security, and law enforcement is law enforcement. However many times it is necessary to make this point, I will make it again: Security and law enforcement ARE NOT THE SAME THING. In fact, most cops aren't trained in security methods.

                  When you have a toothache, you go to the dentist...not a proctologist. Sure, they're both called "Doctor" and they both wear white jackets, but they work at opposite ends of the digestive system, and you're just going to end up with some guy putting his sh1tty fingers in your mouth.
                  Last edited by SecTrainer; 09-05-2007, 02:36 AM.
                  "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                  "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                  "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                  "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post

                    When you have a toothache, you go to the dentist...not a proctologist. Sure, they're both called "Doctor" and they both wear white jackets, but they work at opposite ends of the digestive system, and you're just going to end up with some guy putting his sh1tty fingers in your mouth.
                    That is a great summary!
                    ATTN. SPECOPS AND GECKO45 my secret username is CIDDECEP and I am your S2. My authorization code is Six Wun Quebec Oscar Fife. Your presence here is tactically dangerous and compromises our overall mission parameter. Cease and desist all activity on this board. Our “enemies” are deft at computer hacking and may trace you back to our primary locale. You have forced me to compromise my situation to protect your vulnerable flank. This issue will be addressed later.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post

                      And, my favorite:
                      Manager: Can you enforce my rules and regulations?
                      Police: No, we can only enforce Florida law.
                      Security: Yes, as agents of management, we may.
                      ???

                      Are you saying a off-duty Florida cop can't enforce the rules of his off duty employer? Why (are off duty cops not considered agents of management?) And If so, then yep, still glad I'm in Texas.
                      ~Black Caesar~
                      Corbier's Commandos

                      " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

                      Comment


                      • #12


                        That guy looks like he is about to turn to dust. Couldn't they have found a more suitable "field grade officer"? He looks like he should maybe be working a property room.
                        ATTN. SPECOPS AND GECKO45 my secret username is CIDDECEP and I am your S2. My authorization code is Six Wun Quebec Oscar Fife. Your presence here is tactically dangerous and compromises our overall mission parameter. Cease and desist all activity on this board. Our “enemies” are deft at computer hacking and may trace you back to our primary locale. You have forced me to compromise my situation to protect your vulnerable flank. This issue will be addressed later.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
                          When you have a toothache, you go to the dentist...not a proctologist. Sure, they're both called "Doctor" and they both wear white jackets, but they work at opposite ends of the digestive system, and you're just going to end up with some guy putting his sh1tty fingers in your mouth.
                          Dentists and proctologists work on differant parts of the body. Cops and Security work on the same parts, like Optometrists and Ophthalmologists, just one does things a bit differantly.

                          It's the reason Public Campus Police (and private company police like in NC, and private/quasi-public police forces elsewhere across the country) exists for example. Campus Security can enforce rules, but not laws (unless the law broken is a felony of breach of the peace). Campus police can enforce rules and laws. Both types have restrictions. The police have constitutional restrictions security doesn't (but these are lesser in schools, unlike colleges, which LPguy pointed out a little while back), but security has other restrictions that that the police can get by because of Qualified Immunity.

                          An minor example in Texas is that a S/O pulling a gun on somone when there is no justifiable reason to shoot can be charged with Assault, but a police officer can legally threaten the use of Deadly force (ie point a firearm at someone) even when there is no justification (you just can't use deadly force in that case). Not that it's a good idea to point a weapon and something you don't want to destroy, just pointing out a "capability" differance.

                          I think Lawson said it right, there is no perfect solution, which is why both solutions (EDIT: and hybrid/mixed solutions like off duty cops, private police ect ect) exist in the 1st place.
                          Last edited by Black Caesar; 09-05-2007, 03:40 AM.
                          ~Black Caesar~
                          Corbier's Commandos

                          " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Minneapolis Security View Post


                            That guy looks like he is about to turn to dust. Couldn't they have found a more suitable "field grade officer"? He looks like he should maybe be working a property room.
                            He might be a bailiff or a Jail Deputy or something.
                            ~Black Caesar~
                            Corbier's Commandos

                            " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              In southeast Hillsborough County, we had a community that opted to go with LEOs at contract re-signing and even created a "sub-station" on property where the Deputies can write reports and patrol the community. They even moved 3 Deputies into the complex at a huge discounted rate. That lasted approximately 3 months at which time they rehired us. We spent the next solid month trying to get the community back under control.

                              Be safe,

                              Hank
                              " We are determined that before the sun sets on this terrible struggle, our flag will be recognized throughout the world as a symbol of freedom on one hand and of overwhelming force on the other" - General George C. Marshall

                              Comment

                              Leaderboard

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X