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  • Variances in site authority?

    OK, a few nights ago, I located a guy and girl in a pseudo-restricted area at midnight; I say pseudo only because there is a gate across the access road to prohibit vehicle travel, but in no way stops ppl from walking in...

    They said they were just sitting there "Looking up at the moon", and I advised them they had to move along...

    To back track, the vehicle they were in was seen operating on a public road sans headlights, hence the suspicion...

    Once we arrived back at their vehicle, I asked these folks for ID so I could document names in my report; Alla sudden, the female speaks up (in an Indignant tone BTW...), asking "Why do you need to see my ID?!" I reply that I needed to include that information in my shift report. Then the female say, "What do you mean report? What crime did I commit!?"...

    guys, you have NO idea how bad I wanted to OC that B***h, if for no other reason, than to smarten her up as far as how to speak to someone wearing a Uniform...

    But to get back on topic, and no doubt it ultimately falls under State control, what authority various SO's have to fall back on regarding people who refuse to provide proof (photo ID's, or such) of who they were...
    Last edited by flashlightcop509; 08-30-2007, 07:38 PM.
    “Two wrongs don't make a right, but three rights make a left”
    "I swear to God, I'm going to pistol whip the next guy that says 'Shenanigans' "... Capt. O'Hagan, "Super Troopers"

  • #2
    Originally posted by flashlightcop509 View Post
    OK, a few nights ago, I located a guy and girl in a pseudo-restricted area at midnight; I say pseudo only because there is a gate across the access road to prohibit vehicle travel, but in no way stops ppl from walking in...

    They said they were just sitting there "Looking up at the moon", and I advised them they had to move along...

    To back track, the vehicle they were in was seen operating on a public road sans headlights, hence the suspicion...

    Once we arrived back at their vehicle, I asked these folks for ID so I could document names in my report; Alla sudden, the female speaks up (in an Indignant tone BTW...), asking "Why do you need to see my ID?!" I reply that I needed to include that information in my shift report. Then the female say, "What do you mean report? What crime did I commit!?"...

    guys, you have NO idea how bad I wanted to OC that B***h, if for no other reason, than to smarten her up as far as how to speak to someone wearing a Uniform...

    But to get back on topic, and no doubt it ultimately falls under State control, what authority various SO's have to fall back on regarding people who refuse to provide proof (photo ID's, or such) of who they were...
    I personally love it when, they (knuckleheads) start the "why do you need my ID". When I worked in the not so nice areas, we had knuckleheads like this all night long. I'd say something usually along the lines of "because I (expletive) asked for it, this can go down hill for you real fast, you're trespassing on my property, the ball is in your court". 95% of the time I got the ID....
    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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    • #3
      Simple Q...

      Should've asked for ID when you initially contacted them. If they start the why's and whining and crap like that just tell them that your boss is a a$$ hat and wants to see that your productive, and besides since your are NOT the police any records of people you contact is NOT subject to public record-unless a police report is made, then obviously it is. So the information obtained form them will not go anywhere just to your boss.

      I have been known to get everything but a family tree out of people, complete FI, Social sec Number home, work, cell numbers, you name I can work it. The key is how you present the request for information.

      People instictively and subconsciously like to be little helpers. But, if they get all froggy on you and refuse to cooperate, then give them a little reminder that they are on private property and their failure to provide you with ID is grounds for an immediate escort off the property as they are trespassing. (LOL, you were going to do that anyways right?)

      Ok, so let's say they are just being little sh*ts and you remind yourself that you could use a little OC practice LOL. Once you get them to their vehicle tell them this; "Hey you know what I forgot something (get out notebook) all the information on you I need is right here on your lic plate. (write down LIC plate info)" When they freak out and say you can't do that, remind them that you can, as it's public information and all, if they would like to hang out and argue the point that would constitute Criminal Trespass. Otherwise, you nice folks need to leave, and now would be a good time. tuh tah!

      If your lucky, they'll get pissed and call the cops and report that some "dumb a$$ guard" wrote down their lic plate and that's illegal and they want to press charges on you... After the laughtrer stops the cops will usually tell them to go pound sand.

      Heck you might have given some cop or dispatcher a good enough laugh that they will get a cup coffee. Never know...
      Last edited by ValleyOne; 08-30-2007, 08:12 PM. Reason: typo
      ~Super Ninja Sniper~
      Corbier's Commandos

      Nemo me impune lacessit

      Grammical and Spelling errors may occur form time to time. Yoov bin worned

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      • #4
        Originally posted by ValleyOne View Post
        Simple Q...

        Should've asked for ID when you initially contacted them. If they start the why's and whining and crap like that just tell them that your boss is a a$$ hat and wants to see that your productive, and besides since your are NOT the police any records of people you contact is NOT subject to public record-unless a police report is made, then obviously it is. So the information obtained form them will not go anywhere just to your boss.

        I have been known to get everything but a family tree out of people, complete FI, Social sec Number home, work, cell numbers, you name I can work it. The key is how you present the request for information.

        People instictively and subconsciously like to be little helpers. But, if they get all froggy on you and refuse to cooperate, then give them a little reminder that they are on private property and their failure to provide you with ID is grounds for an immediate escort off the property as they are trespassing. (LOL, you were going to do that anyways right?)

        Ok, so let's say they are just being little sh*ts and you remind yourself that you could use a little OC practice LOL. Once you get them to their vehicle tell them this; "Hey you know what I forgot something (get out notebook) all the information on you I need is right here on your lic plate. (write down LIC plate info)" When they freak out and say you can't do that, remind them that you can, as it's public information and all, if they would like to hang out and argue the point that would constitute Criminal Trespass. Otherwise, you nice folks need to leave, and now would be a good time. tuh tah!

        If your lucky, they'll get pissed and call the cops and report that some "dumb a$$ guard" wrote down their lic plate and that's illegal and they want to press charges on you... After the laughtrer stops the cops will usually tell them to go pound sand.

        Heck you might have given some cop or dispatcher a good enough laugh that they will get a cup coffee. Never know...
        Either that, or a newly reported vehicle/incident that they may not have caught otherwise....
        “Two wrongs don't make a right, but three rights make a left”
        "I swear to God, I'm going to pistol whip the next guy that says 'Shenanigans' "... Capt. O'Hagan, "Super Troopers"

        Comment


        • #5
          I'v started carrying my digital camera with me in addition to my voice recorder. We have a ongoing problem of visitors driving into restricted areas and employees who have their visitors or families meet them in unauthorised areas such as parking areas restricted to employees. If I find a vehicle parked illegally I snap a photo of it in the parking spot and any occupants inside. When I type up my incident report I can print out a copy of the photo/s and attach it to the report. I got tired of trespassers who not only refused to cooperate (wouldn't even roll down their windows to even acknowledge us standing at their vehicle) but repeatedly ignored our instructions regarding plant rules such as use of visitor parking and drop off and pick up areas. Just as bad were plant empolyees who ignored our instructions to present ID when approched for similar problems. No big deal, I snap a photo of the uncooperative employee, his guest and the vehicle. The next shift, when it happens again I do the same. By the time the security coordinator returns from his weekend off he has a stack of reports waiting with photos he can use to find out the id of the employee and deal with him via company disiplinary means. It doesn't take long before employees get the word out that the guards are serious about the rules and some fat bastard is taknig photos of everyone who doesn't play nice. Well, let's be realistic, some of us are serious about the rules. We have whole shifts which never do rounds or bother to do anything durng their shifts.
          Before anyone mentions that we could benefit from some better access control let me assure you that we ( ok some of us, others couldn't care less)have been trying for some time to get the plant to tighten up some and to repair things such as the card reader and automatic arm at the entrance to the employee lot. It's been an uphill battle.
          Hospital Security Officer

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          • #6
            Usually, you have no recourse if someone refuses to provide identification except to demand they leave the property.

            Indeed, unless someone is under custodial arrest, a police officer may only request identification.

            The caveat to this is that a police officer may demand identification pursuant to an investigation, such as identifying a trespasser, and refusal is usually "refusal to obey a lawful order" or "obstruction of justice by failure to identify."

            For security personnel, 9 times out of 10, you cannot make anyone give you their ID. However, you can consider them a trespasser because they cannot prove legitimacy on the property and order them to leave.

            Depending on your state, you may then take their ID after they are placed in custodial arrest for trespassing after warning... or throw their ass off your property.
            Some Kind of Commando Leader

            "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

            Comment


            • #7
              In Quebec a person does not have to identify themselves to a Security Officer UNLESS the Security is enforcing a provincial or federal law. For example a private security guard hired by a city to enforce by-laws such as dogs not on a leash etc can under our Penal Code arrest if you refuse to id yourself so that they can issue you a ticket. Security hired to enforce no smoking laws etc can also arrest. If they don't know who to issue the ticket to it is considered Obstruction of a Public Official.
              I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
              Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

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              • #8
                I work in a state where campus security is considered to be college representatives and, in this state refusal to provide i.d. is amisdemeanor
                Murphy was an optomist.

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                • #9
                  This is interesting to me.

                  Jeff, can you provide the "concealing identity" statute? If I remember correctly, you're in Illinois. Is this concealing identity statute cover all government employees and contractors or merely law enforcement officers?

                  On Neil's one... Can any private citizen issue a citation, or do the security issuing citations have special vested powers in them?

                  Usually, states write obstruction to only cover sworn law enforcement officers and other government workers, but I have no clue about Canadian law.
                  Some Kind of Commando Leader

                  "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
                    This is interesting to me.

                    Jeff, can you provide the "concealing identity" statute? If I remember correctly, you're in Illinois. Is this concealing identity statute cover all government employees and contractors or merely law enforcement officers?

                    On Neil's one... Can any private citizen issue a citation, or do the security issuing citations have special vested powers in them?

                    Usually, states write obstruction to only cover sworn law enforcement officers and other government workers, but I have no clue about Canadian law.
                    It's part of the Quebec Penal Code, not Canadian law. It gives the power to arrest for Obstruction to any "offical" hired to enforce a Quebec law. They do not have to be sworn Peace Officers.
                    I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
                    Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Since I work on private college property and we have a peppering of other properties in the area our jurisdiction is rather wide. We have full authority now (just adopted use of force policy finally) and it is required by law that if we ask for ID people must hand it over or they are escorted off the premises and if they refuse the police is called in.

                      It used to be we had the authority to report things and that was just about it. Thanks to the new use of force policy we now have batons, OC, and handcuffs so we have a lot more authority now.
                      -Protect and Serve-

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jbaerbock View Post
                        Since I work on private college property and we have a peppering of other properties in the area our jurisdiction is rather wide. We have full authority now (just adopted use of force policy finally) and it is required by law that if we ask for ID people must hand it over or they are escorted off the premises and if they refuse the police is called in.

                        It used to be we had the authority to report things and that was just about it. Thanks to the new use of force policy we now have batons, OC, and handcuffs so we have a lot more authority now.
                        They don't actually have to give you ID, they can just leave.

                        Remember, folks, no one has to do anything if there's another option. Usually, unless they are under custodial arrest or you are issuing a lawful order (which statute says that if its disobeyed, its a crime), you can't force someone to give you their ID.
                        Some Kind of Commando Leader

                        "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by flashlightcop509 View Post
                          But to get back on topic, and no doubt it ultimately falls under State control, what authority various SO's have to fall back on regarding people who refuse to provide proof (photo ID's, or such) of who they were...
                          Unfortunately, private citizens are never at any time required to provide ID to private security officers. If they are on private property that is not open to the public (key element), you can of course advise them that if they refuse to identify themselves to you, you cannot establish their legitimacy on the property, that they are trespassing, and they must leave immediately or you may apprehend them for criminal trespass.
                          Last edited by LPGuy; 08-31-2007, 08:43 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Yeah if you read my earlier post that is what I ment. If they wish to stay on the property they must provide ID if asked for it. If they do not we escort them off campus and if they do not want to go we call the local PD.
                            -Protect and Serve-

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                            • #15
                              I wouldn't get too wound up about it. I would never give my ID to a security officer since I know I don't have to. I would just leave.

                              The way I look at it is just like a liquor store. They can't require you to show ID either. Of course no ID equals no booze. As stated, if they don't want to show ID, the best you can do is tell them to leave immediately or face arrest for trespassing.

                              Whenever I have asked for ID, I have usually had good luck in getting it. But, I always keep in mind that they are well within their rights to tell me to pound sand.

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